Mark:
>When I eat an alfalfa sprout, a living being, I am a killer.  If I feel
>remorse or guilt about being a sprout killer, I might choose to tell myself
>that I performed the act with kindness, compassion and mercy.

This is definitely a possibility. But if you acknowledge that some people
truly feel these sentiments on a deep spiritual or emotional level, then
the question begs how do you determine them from those who are obviously
trying to fool themselves?

>Telling myself this allows me to cover up my guilt feelings and to feel
better about my sprout-killing. But I contend this is self-deception.

Avoidance behavior such as going vegan does not necessarily solve these
feelings of guilt. I see no reason why any human being should feel guilty
for eating foods they are biologically designed to eat, and I question the
validity of any action or feeling that is based on guilt.

>It may be troubling to face contradictions in ourselves, but face them we
must if we >are to emerge from the trance of everyday life.  (A trance
common to all of humanity, >not just meat eaters.)

I agree. I just do not think that vegans are any better at facing these
contradictions than anybody else.

>For most of us this is a hypothetical situation.  How many of us give any
>thought to the feelings of plants?

Are you saying that feeling guilty for eating any food, plant or animal, is
a natural and healthy sentiment rather than an expression of neurotic
obsession?

>The real contradictions face us when we
>are confronted with the decision whether or not to continue killing
>(usually by proxy) and eating animals.  Most of us feel genuine positive
>feelings for animals, at least some animals.  Though many would deny it, I
>suggest that it is a rare person who, at some level of their being, has
>been completely untroubled by feelings of guilt, sadness, remorse, etc. in
>connection with killing animals for food.  I suggested in my original post
>on this topic that to talk of killing animals for food "mercifully" was a
>way of dealing with these feelings.

Are you suggesting that when people face their guilt that it then goes away
and that if meat eaters do this that, they then can eat meat with a good
consciousness? These would indeed be radical words coming from a vegan
sympathizer. :-)

>I don't say that a meat eater has no kindness or compassion.  That would be
>an absolutely ludicrous position.  I am not even saying that they are less
>kind or compassionate than vegans.  Few people want animals to suffer.  But
>it certainly is possible to cover up guilt feelings by saying we want the
>killing done "mercifully."  After all, how many people really investigate
>whether the animals they eat were killed "mercifully"?

I am positive every meat eater on this list does.

>I haven't been in a slaughterhouse, but I would think that the
>professionals are trained to kill the animals efficiently and quickly,
>certainly more so than would be possible with a gun at a distance.  Of
>course, this probably doesn't take into account the fact that in a
>slaughterhouse, it may be that the animals next in line can smell the blood
>and hear the cries and probably know what is coming.  (You may not think
>they're that intelligent, but I do.)  So from a psychological standpoint,
>maybe their suffering is greater in a slaughterhouse.

You just made my point. :-)

Peter:
>> Rather being an issue of hypocrisy is not the core of the matter that you
>> believe that killing and eating another creature is an act of violence in
>> which there is no place for compassion?

Mark:
>It certainly is an act of violence, and I do not see the compassion in this
>specific act.  Why is this so hard for people to accept?  Are our egos so
>weak that we must think of ourselves as kind and compassionate ALWAYS, even
>when we are killing an animal?  I'm not saying the meat eater is despicable
>scum, I'm just saying I don't see the compassion in this act.  Maybe we
>should just acknowledge that we are hungry.  Justifying it with evidence
>about humans being omnivores is one thing, but let's not throw compassion
>into it.

When vegans express the compassion they feel for carrots when they pull
them from the ground or the mercy they feel for fresh, green Spring leaves
as they pick them from the tree, are you just as adamant about pointing out
their hypocrisy as well? ;-)

Peter:
>>What you do seem to be saying is that the compassion that meat-eaters
>>feel for animals is less real than that of plant-eaters.  I am reading you
>>correctly?

Mark:
>If you and I are both petting a pig and saying warm and fuzzy things about
>it, and then you proceed to kill and eat the pig, I will no doubt feel that
>you didn't care for the pig as much as I did.

Since I am not acting out personal feelings of guilt like surely a great
number of  vegans do in their refusal to eat foods that they are very
likely to have nutritional requirements for, I could argue that the
feelings that I am expressing to the pig are more real and therefore run
deeper, but of course I will not make such a conclusion. :-)

> Maybe I will even suspect that while I was thinking of how cute the pig
looked, you >were thinking of how tasty it looked.

I would think that when most animals are slaughtered today it is done by
humans on full stomachs. Also, much evidence points to that our ancestors
were to a large degree scavengers. But since I have so little experience
with eating animals and absolutely none with slaughtering, I had better end
my speculations here. :-)

>But since I have no way of feeling what you are feeling, I would be only
speculating.

I often feel terrible guilty about eating meat - both for the animal and
the environment - but it is my contention that these feelings are socially
& psychologically conditioned.

Best, Peter
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