> 3.  Meat production...is more ecologically sustainable than
> plant production...topsoil on the Great Plains ...was produced by
> billions of hoofed animals that far outnumbered the animals we produce
> today. Now you're talking. Excellent point, if it's practically
applicable
today.  BTW, Paul Shepard (the father of deep ecology) is an avid hunter
> as well as a falconer.
That's interesting. I am thinking about taking it up, myself.
Hunting,I mean.
>4.  Those promoting the vegetarian lifestyle have included ...Hitler,
Mussolinni, Stalin,> Pol Pot etc.).
And some other people, much nicer. Like my friends. This sounds like
it could be a fallacy; there are plenty of rotten and nice people in
either group.> Perhaps you will see a different path than transending
(ignoring)
> industrialism or blowing it to pieces.
I don't remember mentioning either in my post. But I _have_ been
looking with morbid fascination at the world self destructing , like
watching a burning building. Or _Titanic_.  I'm sure the topic is
related somehow to Paleo living and what we eat (or will be eating in
30 years, if we're doing anything at all). Perhaps the connection will
become clear.I also
> deeply feel those "humane" attitudes towards others that are mostoften
> found in carnivorous pack animals and not in herbavores ( it's every
> sheep for himself when the wolf comes).>
I'm not sure what you're driving at, but it does remind me of
something. I got mugged the other day and have been thinking a lot
since then about predation. Alone, I was attacked from behind by two
men bigger than me. A coworker saw it happen from the window of a
saloon and when he came out, they ran off.  I think he had a humane
attitude toward me in that he risked himself to help me; he eats meat.
The muggers didn't look like vegetarians; no Birkenstock sandals (too
hard to run in 'em). I think the "humaneness" characterization you're
implying for pack hunting meatarians goes both ways the same as the
"Hitler was a vegetarian" shtick: some are, some aren't humane.
Depends, as they say, on whose ox is gored. My meat eating fellow pack
member behaved humanely towards me. Apparently the others were looking
to optimize their pack's contribution to the gene pool at my expense.
Maybe not "humane", but certainly human nature.
But isn't it just as true that it's "every wolf for himself when the
sheep are in short supply"? I think I need to learn a lot more about
predation and how it relates to my own behavior.
The real reason for eating meat, for me, is I get sick without it, and
I have as much of a right, or responsibility, as any animal to take
care of myself. The struggle for a reforming vegetarian is to step
outside of a deeply felt belief system and  accept that others pay a
price for my survival. I must learn to responsibly take what is not
offered willingly,  _because it is in the natural order of things_.
Rationalizatons about how much or little animals suffer or what would
happen to them if they weren't farmed for slaughter are beside the
point. I have to kill somebody. Like most vegetarians, I see
personality in the animals I know.
This requires, instead of rationalization, acceptance and  detachment;
 I am in a body that has rules of its own I cannot change and can only
ignore or follow. In the Bhagavad-Gita, Krishna tells Arjuna that he
is only responsible to follow his nature as a warrior to fight and
kill; peace comes from filling one's role honorably. There is no
karmain that.
Ray, thanks again for sharing your understanding.Arthur McCaskey
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com