Stefan:
>Obviously you choose to be in a bad mode each day, Kirt. And you
>choose, to be a victim of bad news and point out the negative side
>of life.
>That's y o u r problem. :-( :-(
:) :) The situation is plenty negative by itself. Unlike you, I don't
consider it my role to play positive spin doctor to Burger's arrest. I
instead find it necessary to say enough is enough with this guy.
Kirt:
>>What are the writers supposed to understand of instinctive nutrition?
Stefan:
>The writers seemed to fail to understand the instinctive lifestyle that
>comes together with instinctive nutrition. This failure let them mis-
>interpret everything they watched during their stay at Montrame.
How do you misinterpret pedophilia? It may be that this is part of _your_
misunderstanding, Stefan. Seriously, when a diet becomes a total plan for
life there are endless chances for trouble, just the kind of trouble that
Meta has apparently led to. Instinctive nutrition has plenty of problems,
and plenty of insights--but are we to take instinctive "lifestyle"
(whatever that is!!) at face value and excuse any manner of outrageousness
because Burger declares it part of an instinctive lifestyle?! You appear to
very very willing to do this, and it completely baffles me. Indeed, you
seem to be as blinded as you you claim the journalists are. You show
outrage about a reporting style and none toward Burger's injustices to
others. Seems terribly out of balance to me.
>If you come home and find the door of your house broken and see
>someone heavily working in your house, you would at first suspect him
>to be a burglar. Now you come closer to the scene: really, a burglar,
>because you don't know him.
>And then he tells you, that while passing your house, he saw smoke
>coming out of one of the windows, smashed the front door to go in and
>extinguished the fire. And right: there is something burned in the
>kitchen (I hear you are cooking again... :-)) and his story is ob-
>viously true.
>So you thank the "burglar" for his work and invite him to a glass
>of coconut juice... :-)
And if the "someone" is seen over and over to actually be a burgler how
many burgler stories will it take to remian in denial? ;)
Kirt:
>>Have they not exceeded the limits of what _you_ tolerate as well?
>Difficult to say, because I couldn't translate the whole article.
>Thanks to Jean-Louis who translated major disgusting sections of the
>article (but that was after my first reaction).
>Anyway it doesn't matter if I tolerate something. So why do you ask?
It is interesting, and often surprising to find out what sort of moralities
are part of an instinctive lifestyle. At its grossest, I guess one might
sum it up as "if it feels good do it"--sort of an ego-centric golden rule.
You seem a reasonable fellow, very well-nourished by instincto standards,
and yet the most you'll do is _hedge_ about Burger's pedophilia. I gotta
say, when I first posted on this I thought the reaction would be, "Aw, come
on, Kirt, shut up--who _isn't_ deeply put off by pedophilia." Yet you seem
unruffled in the least (except by the dreaded negativity of the
journalists' and myself). I understand giving a guy the benefit of the
doubt, but there does come a time when a line is crossed, no?
Kirt:
>>But I am very curious: how is ORKOS in danger? Is it because
>Yes, you are curious to hear more negative news. That's you. Typical.
Jeez, Stefan, I couldn't understand how ORKOS could be closed down is all.
>If Burger was arrested for the bad article in L'Express it is perhaps
>not too far-fetched to guess, that the police even would try to shut
>down Orkos because of the slanderous claims about their profits.
Burger wasn't arrested for a bad article, but for the alleged abuse of
children.
>Bad news again for you: they didn't. Orkos continues.
So sarcastic. I don't hate ORKOS at all! They simply need to pay higher
wages to stay out of trouble, no?--what's the big deal?
>Some years ago a german, I know personally, tried to set up a company
>like Orkos, selling only instincto quality food. Because he couldn't
>"exploit" his workers, like Orkos does, he had to charge even higher
>prices than Orkos. And he got lots of trouble with the suppliers he
>ordered from. He saw that he permanently had to control the quality
>of the incoming foods (like Orkos does).
>He finally went down financially because there were not enough
>customers to pay his prices. And he is surely not a guy who wanted
>to make big profits out of this business. He just wanted to have a
>reliable second supply (counting Orkos as the first one).
But ORKOS _has_ a pretty large customer base who is willing to pay their
prices, so what does your story show? Sounds like exactly what might have
happened to ORKOS years ago if it wasn't for its relationship with Montrame
(which did get them some cheap labor I'd guess and a constant "market" for
their ripe produce). I'm more puzzled about ORKOS than ever and was
astounded at the turnover they are now doing ($$2-3 million).
I wonder if mismanagement doesn't contribute to the high prices as well. An
old story: a worker at ORKOS was amazed that they charged the same for
cassia in the pod as in the jar, ignoring the labor time needed to jar it.
So the worker did some primitive experimenting and came up with the
surcharge price needed to cover their costs. The worker also reveled in
many imported fruits which were becoming overripe (sometimes barely or not
really) at a reduced price or even free if the manager was in a good mood.
The ripe stuff would often go straight to the Montrame. Perhaps ORKOS has
finally got a handle on some old-fashioned business basics these days, but
it may be business as usual. Sooner or later they must jack up prices to
avoid going bankrupt from inefficiancies.
Now, Stefan, before you go on about my negativity here--save it. Its just
an idea to add to the stew about why ORKOS is so expensive. And, like
Jean-Louis, I couldn't understand many of their prices either. Honey was
way high, and the imported stuff was often more than 250% the price of the
sprayed fruit in Paris' chinatown. I'd like to see the numbers that
justified prices like that. The costs for transport must be roughly
comparable (for a chinatown importer vs. ORKOS) with ORKOS paying a premium
for its smaller scale perhaps. But the southeast asian prices probably
can't explain 250% difference on the exact same varieties. Time will tell,
I suppose. When, and if, ORKOS has some competition, it will be interesting
to see what happens.
Kirt:
>>And at the risk of being slanderous, I am dubious about any organization
>>which relies on the taste-change reports of a certain Guy-Claude Burger
>>as the bottom line in its quality control.
>Since you aren't living in Europe you can't speak about the quality
>of Orkos' products.
Huh? Did I say this to you when you went on about the USA food scene (very
inaccurately BTW)?
>Fact is, that in all the years I am ordering foods from them, they
> n e v e r sold me a denatured food, not even accidentally. And
>this is, what other instinctos say. I don't know a n y instincto
>who has ever experienced the opposite.
>In the early years of Orkos, they may have had some accidents, though.
>But they were not so much because of the testers (whoever they are,
>including GCB) failure but because of a too low frequency of tests.
That's a very sound endorsement.
Kirt:
>My hope is that this latest scandal will be the end of Guy-Claude and
>Your socalled "hopes" are mostly negative. That's your problem.
It's all point-of-view I guess. To me the end of Guy-Claude/Meta is a very
positive thing, a free-ing and a fresh start for instincto.
>You always hick-hack on your guess of people needing gurus. Well, it was
>the press here, titling "... un gourou de pedophilia" and it was the
>press declaring GCB to be a guru.
>For me he isn't. But for you, in your subconscious, I assume. That would
>explain your disappointed reaction and your negativity pretty well.
Ditto. It might explain your hanging on to a sinking ship which is
Burger/Meta as examples of instinctive living, whatever that is.
Kirt:
>>But what better place for him to play martyr, eh? If every instincto
>Contentless, negative talk. Save me the time to answer it.
It is not contentless, but I can see why you won't respond to what you snipped.
Kirt:
>>I wish you would. It's kinda hard to know how disgusted to be. I'm
>>especially curious about the ages of the children.
>Your reaction is supposed to be that of the average cooked eater
>reading L'Express. Congratulations. Is this level all you can offer?
We need a word for this, no? How about "gustism"--which means prejudice
against another based on what kind of food they eat. FWIW, I'm done eating
steamed veggies for weeks now. Whoopdedo... As for cooked food eaters, I
know MANY who are IMO on the average much more "human" than the average
instincto (or raw foodist). You're looking down from your pedistal on
nearly six billion people because they eat varying degrees of cooked foods.
Congratulations. If this is an example of "superior raw thought" or a
result of "proper instinctive living"--thanks, but no thanks--it is just
more for me to be embarrassed about.
>By the way...
>perhaps the journalists should have taken the opening photo of the
>heavily discussed NFL book for the article... :-) I'am sure, nobody
>would have noticed.
>(For the new members of the list: this photo shows three naked boys,
>aged beginning twenty, in a tree).
The similarities are large. Both basically done for money and attention.
But naked pictures or not, what about the content? You yourself seem to be
perseverating more on the tabloid jounalism tactics than the story itself.
Ironic.
>Ellie:
>>IMO his "meta" philosophy stems from his addiction to sex. IMO
>>homosexuality and all addictions have their source in co-dependency
>Hm. What I really don't know is, if homosexuality didn't ocurr in
>ancient times. I think it did. Then it must something natural, although
>not appearing frequently.
>I also doubt that GCB is addicted to sex but the translations of
>Jean-Louis really sound bad.
Why do you doubt? I just don't get it. Is it like, "There is just no way it
could be true" in your head? It is appealing to know that the translations
really sound bad to you. It will be interesting to see what you think
several years from now...
Ellie:
>>I hope that he hits a bottom and gets into recovery, and
>>that this whole issue brings new light on living instinctively.
>The question would be, what GCB is supposed to recover from. My two
>cents: his amalgam fillings, he frequently denies to give problems.
>Hg has severe impacts on psyche and personality. You would be perfect-
>ly right with your toxic minds explanations then.
Wow. This is really over the top. What are you saying here? That Burger has
a severely impacted psyche and personality? (Yippeee! We agree ;)) That if
he had fewer cavities filled he would be as right as rain? In English this
is called "grasping at straws".
You say, "What is GCB supposed to recover from?" Wow, again. This implies
GCB perfection, more or less--except for those nasty amalgams, eh?
>>It certainly isn't clear to me that
>>Guy-Claude qualifies as a scientist, researcher, or guru. He relies
>Given this, why did you stick to instinctive nutrition for such a long
>time? And why were you excited and positive about IN just some bloody
>months ago? It's y o u who has changed, not instincto theory.
Yeah. <pride>
Kirt:
>>Somewhere down the road it would be nice
>>if instincto rubbed elbows with the other emerging paleo-diets and
>>evolved into something greater than the sum of its parts, but with
>>Montrame's track record screwing its fledgling reputation up but good,
>>I wonder how long in the future it might be.
>Here is a good example of a person, who needs a leader. That's you,
>Kirt!
How so? I'm completely baffled. Lead me out of my confusion please. ;)
>My proposition: forget about the leaders and Montrame. Exchange
>experience with others (you already do with this list) and develop
>instincto theory on your own. For me this is an exciting idea. I'm
>already practising it. Why do I need Mr. Burger to do further deve-
>lopment on instincto theory?
Right, he has been an obstacle to instincto for many years now.
>I've got lots of theories, hypotheses, guesses and other tracks to
>follow. Will be an interesting path. I am my own leader, without an
>owner's manual for my body, as Bob stated so marvelous.
All very inspiring, but why do you still spare Burger/Meta?
Life (cooked or raw) is far too short to carry this exchange much further.
I have said most everything I wanted to on the original thread (Burger) and
suspect that "my bafflement that you appear to 'protect GCB'" isn't really
a proper thread so I am bowwing out of this one. I agree that we disagree.
Thanks again to JL for translating (and probably Deborah Boyar) and the
summarizing.
Cheers,
Kirt
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