Ward:
<<. My interests these days are less with physical aspects of diets as the
behavioral/ emotional/ psychological issues. >>

Many years ago, when I was first starting out, I used to design nutrition and
health programs for people and then watch almost everyone struggle with the
REAL problems with living healthfully - the underlying psychological problems.

I learned pretty quickly that most people at least have a kind of general
sense of what to eat, that's it better to excercise somehow or another, that
stress is not a good thing, that you should probably sleep more than you are,
etc etc etc. In other words, where people really need help is not nearly as
much in the information that I can share with them, but rather, in overcoming
whatever psychological hurdles are in the way of their taking care of their
health in the ways that they wish they could.

So I am very interested in the "behavioral / emotional / psychological" issues
also.

<<  getting at the motivations behind fanaticism or zealotry is more
difficult, and I've been mulling over these issues recently.>>

Ward, I guess I see human uniqueness and individuality as the most
overridingly important factor to consider, in every arena.  It is the same
with psychological motivations as it is with diet - there are very very very
few general "rules"  that apply to more than one person, in my opinion.

In my view, the quest for formulas or categorizations in an attempt to
describe or understand human behavior are at best not very useful, and at
worst, lead to the labelling and the cold, detached "pseudo-scientific"
approaches to mental-health that don't take into account the very specific and
unique reasons people are the way they are, and furthermore result in the
dangerous view that there is such a thing as mental "disease' which takes one
single "form" and is predictable and needs doctors, drugs, strange protocols,
etc. to "cure" it.

I'm maybe not being as clear as I would like to be on this subject - which I
care very much about - but the point I hope I'm making is that each person is
unique.

The reasons I become a zealot or a diet fanatic are my reasons, and are a
result of the interplay of my particular constitution and my particular
environment. You and I may share some similarities in our zealotry, but
ultimately I have my reasons that are dirving me to irrational behavior, and
you have yours.

For instance, you could be a short man, who's entire life is driven by the
fact that you must prove yourself to be powerful in whatever way. I could be a
woman who grew up as the arrogant little daughter of an oil magnate, and
believe that I own the world and whatever I say about anything is the way its
gonna be. You could be a person who's parents are obese and diabetic and smoke
4 packs a day, and you have vowed to never suffer the same fate. I could be an
ex heroin addict who's local preacher turned me on to health foods, saved my
life, and I am convinced that everyone else deserves to "see the light" and be
born again like me.  You could be the son of a minister, who's calling was
supposed to be the ministry, and who has just kind of switched things a little
and become a proselytizer of food instead of religion. I could be a
desperately confused blonde (that describes me fairly accurately), who will
latch onto anything that seems like an anchor. You could be the kid no one
listened to, who as an adult has figured out how to look like an authority. I
could be looking for easy money schemes and have landed on the gullible new-
age health world as a great source of consumers of my plagiarized materials.
You could be an old Italian who hasn't done anything much with his life, so he
postures to the American raw-food community of young people and milks his
status as a foreigner for all its worth. I could be a doctor who wants to sell
a book and found a hot topic. You could be a guy who doesn't have to work for
a living, and has too much time to contemplate his navel, and worrying about
food is something to do to kill time. I could just need to get a life, and
"caring" about food is at least some kind of life - it at least gives some
kind of meaning to my otherwise directionless existence.

See what I mean? To me, anyway, it's not very useful to try to find
commonalities, since in the end the best way to help people out of their
particular rut is to really pay attention to THEIR own particular, specific
reasons for being nutty.

<<  Something I've begun to wonder about in wrestling with this is if there is
really any one, single motivation, or set of motivations, that can adequately
describes what drives ALL fanatics. >>

Like I've said above, there may be some common set of motivations, but to me
they don't seem useful, even though it is the convention in the fields of
psychology and social science to try to describe human behavior in categories
and with labels.

<<  Myself for example, I didn't realize how "normal" a childhood I had (two
pretty
 loving parents, a sister, the pet cat, etc., a relatively idyllic childhood
in a small town) until I started waking up to the fact that almost as often as
not, it seemed like the people around me came from some kind of dysfunctional
or otherwise weird family.>>

That's funny! ;-) Had you just thought that everyone else's family was just
like yours? Or had you thought that your family was messed up, only to
discover later that other families were even worse? Do you come from a loud
family?  Were you allowed to be outspoken, messy, improper, rant and rage, act
out, etc.? Did you have to do good at school, or be good, period?

 <<  One thing I have gotten to wondering about, though, that seems as if it
could have been at least partially responsible for how it happened with me is
the whole idea of "human potential" and the drive to "be all we can be" and
excel. >>

If you are the kind of person who has pressure on himself to be perfect, then,
the human potential movement can become a really oppressive burden, just "more
of the same."  On the other hand, if you are a person who has no belief at all
in their own ability to to well at anything in this world, who gave up on
themselves many many years ago, then the human potential movement probably
inspires you and gives you the strength to try to forge yourself a better
life.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record to myself, but I guess I'm, saying
the sme thing again here - that everything depends on who you are. The same
message is heard 1,000 different ways by 1,000 different ears, I think.

<< Another thing that happened with me is that like a lot of fanatics ....I
got into an us/them mentality probably due to something of a superiority
complex about what I had discovered that separated me from other people to
some degree.>>

This is something I've seen a lot of in the alternative health movement. My
guess would be that the people who get stuck in this probably have some sort
of superiority complex to begin with, and it just shows more when there's an
"excuse" for it like diet, or some other "inside" information.

You've raised another critical issue here, in my opinion. A big issue (and
another one which I'm passionate about). Its the issue of the social-class
difference between people who are "in" movements and people who are not. This
has to do with the accessibility of new information, leisure time to read and
go to meetings and have discussions, money to buy books, supplements, organic
foods, alternative health modalities not covered by insurance, and politically
correct acoutrements, etc. And, most importantly, what you have mentioned
above, which is the bad habit of people who are a little more fortunate
economically to have feelings of superiority over those less fortunate, which
shows up in funny ways in conversations and behaviors and assumptions and so
on. The attitude of superiority, or "better than" or "being more in the know"
is very very very very difficult, almost impossible, to see if you are the one
with that attitude. But its glaringly obvious to those on the receiving end.

I don't think anyone's to blame for this phenomenon, but I've seen this wreck
great social movements. I think if it would be possible to fix this problem,
many great movements, including a raw-food or healthy-eating movement, would
overnite become unstoppable in their power.

I'm glad you brought this up.

<< One thing that has really struck me that is a key to how fanatics behave
 with other people--and may also have a lot to do with WHY they become
fanatical in the first place--is that they often are more enthused about ideas
than people.>>

This is great! Yes, I agree - in fact, I used to know a funny saying by
someone that made fun of this, something like "I love humanity, its people I
can't stand." I forget who said it. Yeah - that problem seems rampant in
movements, all movements. Its one more manifestation of people being inept in
the key way that would make them be an influential leader - which is - making
friends and having close relationships.

<<.If you are someone who takes an existential "no" rather than "yes" approach
to life, then any kind of change is experienced as psychologically unsettling
(it can be unsettling enough even if you are usually in the habit of embracing
life!), and you just want to shut it off, or shout it down, so as to forever
rise above the confusion. >>

I talk a lot about saying "yes" to life and passion in my workshops on
addictions and eating disorders. Some people have been forced to make early
decisions to give up struggling for life, and spend their lives hanging out
waiting to go. Lots of people with heavy addictions function (heroically,
considering) under this burden.

What you are calling "psychologically unsettling" I just call "scared." In my
opinion, most problems are just fear when it comes down to it.

As I see it, addictions just allow you to function without having to feel
feelings (always fear, usually accompanied by other emotions, but always the
overriding feeling is frozen terror - just good old fashioned scared to
death).

<< Maybe these musings will .... lead to an "aha" moment. That's what I'm
looking for here.>>

I hope I've helped a little in this direction. We could do it better in
person, for sure. I'm not that good at writing yet, and especially not on the
internet. But you have raised questions about things I care a lot about, and
spend most of my time and energy in my work life thinking about and trying to
put into useful practice to help people.

<< Liza, I've also struggled with the idea of intentional evil for a long
time, and as the years go by am more inclined to say, okay, I'm willing to
accept that this can be, and the destrucive behavior of some people is not
just ignorance or warped thinking. ...... how did people get that way to begin
with? ...... It's hard to believe they started out that way as little kids.
What would be interesting and helpful is knowing the etiology of it all. >>

They didn't start that way as little kids!! I've seen loads of kids in my day
(my own and others) and its a fact that kids, even the ones that have a real
early start getting messed up in the womb, are just not that warped. It takes
loads of effort and heavy and continuous conditioning to mess people up - the
will to survive and live consistent with your inherent loving and powerful
nature is VERY strong and insistent. But years and years of abuse,
misinformation, hidden or blatant "sit down and shut up" messages, weird value
systems installed by well-meaning or evil-intentioned adults, lonliness, and
all, produces some REAL weirdos.

Its all reversible, just takes courage.

But as far as I'm concerned, from my experience with people for many many
years, it almost all goes back to childhood, and the interplay between you and
your raw material, and the challenges life presents to you.

Once again Ward, thanks loads for your totally great, stimulating,
intelligent, honest, and heart-felt post. It's great talking with you.

Love, Liza
[log in to unmask]