Stefan:
> The amount wasn't excessive for   y o u   and concluding that dates
> are leading to overeating is wrong. Proof: I have no diffulties with
> them after I haved finished my phase of date eating years ago. You are
> still in this phase (a typical phase nearly every instincto goes through)
> and wonder about the huge amounts of dates you can eat.
> Other long-term instinctos also tell me that dates aren't attractive
> anymore. Just if there is a real need. No attraction in every other
> situation.
> Please watch for your teeth if you continue to eat lots of dates. They
> tend to bind calcium. I don't know an explanation for this. Detoxing
> bad sugars in your teeth by partially dissolving the teeth? Binding
> calcium from teeth/bones for digestion? Ugly and torturing questions.

Thanks for your answer. I prefer concrete arguments rather than
criticisms like "you say so because you haven't enough experience", or
"you draw conclusions from a particular case", etc... You don't have
to teach me logics. Just one counter-example is enough to disprove a
statement, whereas 1000 examples will never prove a theorem. So, if
instincto doesn't work for one person, you cannot say that it is a
perfect diet. Now, I sometimes use my own experience and generalize,
because my experience is the most reliable source of information. I
have also read all the raw-food archives, lurk the "raw" list (in
digested form) and on the veg-raw list. I have also met a few raw food
eaters. If I seem to talk only about myself, it is just to illustrate
an idea, but I could also quote old raw-food messages.

Now, about dates, I am perfectly aware that after a while dates will
become less attractive. In fact, my periods of eating avocados, honey,
bananas and almonds are over.

However, that argument proves absolutely nothing. Now, even
heat-denatured, non-organic, dried, selected bananas are not very
attractive to me. But you will admit that such a "fude" really leads
to overeating. I am not saying that your argument has no value just
that many factors are involved when someone complains about
overeating: denaturation, need to detoxify, deficiencies *and
sugar*. I have noticed that dried fruits (even from Orkos) are easier
to eat than the fresh ones, probably due to the high concentration in
sugar. Dates are close to dried fruits, due to their low sugar
content.

I also wanted to write a counter-argument to the classical answer "if
you eat too much, it is because your fruits are selected; eat wild
fruits instead, you will find more satisfaction and an unbreakable
stop". That is only half true. I purchased so-called "wild dates" from
Orkos, and they seemed a bit less attractive than the selected ones,
but I didn't find an unbreakable stop. I won't generalize to others,
but my case is obviously a counterexample to their statement.

My opinion, is if a person complains about overeating, the answer
doesn't lie in more perfection. Typically, instead of eating 1 kg of
dates, he will eat 0.5 kg with Orkos dates, which is still too
much. The solution is more complex than being choosy about fruits.

Also, I don't like the statement "you eat a lot of dates because you
have to detoxify bad sugars". Formerly, I never used sugar, only
occasionally ate chocolate, almost no cakes. never had dental caries.
Sure, I used to eat a few cookies in the afternoon, but I would have
much more cooked meat and rice to detoxify. However, I am not
attracted to raw meat, raw rice or raw beets.

There is no rush to detoxify. I posted recently about effects of diet
on my health, I am currently satisfied and don't expect to improve my
intelligence or to become an olympic champion. If I don't have a
permanent sensation of well-being, it is not because of toxemia, but
rather because of eating disorders, sleep deprivation, etc...

If I eat dates, it is not because I want to detox, but for
pleasure. If my intention was to detoxify, a 3 weeks-fast would be
more efficient. The trouble is that before, there was a distinction
between food, supposed to be nutritive and thus consumed in large
quantities, and candies, chocolate, etc... just for pleasure. Now, it
is just the contrary, the more pleasant, the more you have to
eat... and the more dependant on pleasure you are. Burger often says
that as long as more pleasure = better health, he doesn't see the
problem; that there is no disadvantage of being the "slave" of
instinct, since doing otherwise will only result in unhappiness. But I
have to disagree here. If you are _dependent_ on pleasure, i.e. you
are unhappy if you don't have your durian, dream of eating dates, etc,
I don't consider that as a mentally healthy situation. An animal
doesn't have problems with that. If there is no durian left on the
tree, he will search for something else, but won't dream all night of
eating durians.

With a cooked diet, eating candies is associated with a sense of
guilt: we eat because we like it, but we know it is bad for the teeth,
etc. Now, the guilt remains, but IMO in a different form: overeating
fruits is only a proof of psychological weakness (not being able to
resist or to stop); and the too easy justification is "but it is
because I need to detoxify". The first step IMO is to be _honest_,
recognize that weakness. But conversely, do not hate pleasure, because
it is the way Nature works.

"Detoxing bad sugars" is not the most important thing. Mental balance
is to be considered too, and eating disorders, neurotic cravings
justified by so-called "needs to detox" is _not_ a mentally healthy
attitude.

Of course, all the above is a bit exaggerated, but not so much
(according to my experience, other posts on the raw lists,
conversations, etc.)

As a matter of fact, I have tried a few times to do the following: buy
2 kg of dates once every 2 weeks, so that I keep an interval of about
10 days without dates: that limits eating disorders. In fact, the
situation is better now since dates are still attractive but not much
more than many other staples in my diet (and I keep adding new foods
to my diet). Anyway, I won't have Orkos when I live in the US, and I
don't need it any longer (another dependence to the trash).

I hope my post didn't seem too superficial or naive to you (if you are
still here and haven't pressed the delete button before).

Best wishes,

Jean-Louis.