Stefan:
>I agree with Mark here. Killing is violence and unless it is done for a
>merciful reason as given above (ending suffering from an ailment or other
>possibilities) I can't see any mercy involved in this act.

Is killing an animal violence because force is used, because the animal has
a nervous system and therefore in you opinion suffers or because another
life is being ended? To me violence means somebody's rights or integrity
are being violated, and I do not see this being the case when killing an
animal for food or even when picking a peach from a tree. Is the chimp
violating the termites by eating them? - I think not. They are there to
serve the chimp and visa versa.

Mark:
>I can't tell who is fooling themselves or not.  By raising the issue I
>hoped that if anyone was fooling him/herself, that they would come to their
>senses.

I think you are fooling yourself a little by not looking at the possibility
that some people can actually feel deep and real compassion for animals
even while killing them.

Mark:
>No.  I certainly never worry about what plants "think" or "feel," and I am
>not suggesting anyone else should.  I can see how my words might have
>suggested otherwise, tho.  They were sort of an intro to another thought &
>probably should have been deleted.

Does this mean that a vegan who expresses feelings of compassion for the
flower he is picking in your opinion is misguided rather than a hypocrite
because you do not think plants can think or feel? ;-) :-)

Peter:
>> Are you suggesting that when people face their guilt that it then goes
>> away  and that if meat eaters do this that, they then can eat meat with
a >>good  consciousness? These would indeed be radical words coming from a
vegan
>> sympathizer. :-)

Mark:
>I don't know if the guilt would go away.  But at least it would be honest
>guilt, not covered up.

Good point - but I think that covering up of guilt is a lot more prevalent
among vegans than among meat eaters.

Mark:
>As far as being a vegan sympathizer, I like to think I an an equal
opportunity
>sympathizer towards all people, regardless of race, religion, diet, etc.
>This is probably self-delusion on my part, but hey, I'm trying!  :-)

And doing an excellent job at it.

Mark:
>>>killing done "mercifully."  After all, how many people really
>>>investigate whether the animals they eat were killed "mercifully"?

Peter:
>>I am positive every meat eater on this list does.

Mark:
>That statement intrigues me.  How do y'all go about doing so?  :-?

Maybe I went a little too far in this statement but I do believe that the
welfare of animals is an issue all conscious eaters are concerned about.
How could they not be?

Mark:
>Glad to have saved you the trouble.  OK, so apparently you were speaking
>about psychological suffering.  But unless the hunter kills instantly with
>a single shot, I bet Oscar Meyer does a more humane job from the standpoint
>of physical suffering.

Ellie, last year you made some excellent points in the NH M2M about how and
why animals in nature do not suffer while being killed. It was something
about the nervous system going numb when it goes into shock. Could I please
repeat your thoughts on this? - your words left a great impression on me.

Best, Peter
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