In a message dated 8/7/99 9:23:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:

> disputed the Leninist/Bolshevik claims that a
>  vanguard is necessary as a "steering system."  Instead, they maintain, as
>  Chomsky does, that this bureaucracy of experts or intellectuals or managers
>  constitute a form of illegitimate, possibly highly abusive authority that
>  may turn out to be much more violent and oppressive (to their own
citizenry)
>  than capitalist models.  This is a crucial debate, and I think that the
>  libertarian socialists actually owe a lot to democratic predecessors like
>  Paine and Jefferson.  In short, the issue that we should be most concerned
>  about is democracy, as you rightly hold.  However, by claiming that various
>  forms of Bolshevism or state/authoritarian socialism are the only choice
>  provided by a socialist framework, one risks missing out on the compelling
>  ideas and practices of the libertarian socialists.

Yes, this is the debate, but as I understand it the debate takes place today
between the anarchists and the liberals over the place of
institutionalization of democratic procedures. Liberals and socialists put it
into bureaucracies  and hence the administrations, whereas, anarchists place
the legitimation of pltcl decisons not into an analysis of the actual
procedures but into the voluntary associations of citizens and their
productive opinions.

Fred W.