Hi there,
I've never been a fan of pacifism, especially if it is related to to
Hinduism or Buddhism - mainly because it is all about stoicism,
which is blatantly a lie, if you are an anarchist, relishing Max
Sterner, the post-scarcity anarchism of Bookchin, and many others.
In any case, I shall defend pacifism in this case, because I don't
like the way it is being attacked....
Martin William Smith writes:
> My point is that pacifism and passive resistance do not change those
> systems. They win battles, and they might even win a "war", but they
> don't ensure that the same battles and the same "wars" do not start
> again.
Yes, but does war change systems? Yes, and no. The same
answer gets you bonus points with pacifism. If you examine
pacifism in World War II, and beyond, you will find that far fewer
people died, sacrificed their lives, and brought about change in
political systems, than would have been otherwise. A good book
written by a Quaker I would like to refer you to is "The Power of
Nonviolence." It is a little overzealous about Gandhism, but it
covers the history appropriately in our stream of thought...
Some other guy (?) wrote:
> > But, this takes us back to your tides and waves and occasional
> > hurricane, doesn't it -- that is, an inherent imperative for
> > injustice and egoism that must constantly be resisted.
I'm not sure I follow you but.... I don't think pacifist movements
within an anarchist framework should get too serious about raving
against "egoisms" like the Hindu's and so on. To starve yourself
because you believe you are intrinsically evil, is pathetic, if you
really believe that is the only way you can learn to transmit true
love. Rather, I think we should focus on the kind of solidarity that is
found within "personality," something that is vastly lacking in
todays postmodern market place, where values are bought and
sold at the price of the dollar, and merely discarded when they
involve sacrifice. I think just learning discipline and hard earned
values is what a pacifist movement needs - but we should still have
food on the table...
Nevertheless, I believe anarchists have lessons they can learn from
pacifism - just take out the opium of the poeple,
namely the totalizing religions, and you've got a nice resistence.
Again, take a look at pacifism in World War II. I think there is a
utopian vision there we should all consider seriously.
> Of course they must be resisted, but some people not only do not
> resist them, they use them. It is not a dichotomy of resist or join.
> There is a third possibility. Change the metamodel. Changing the
> thing being resisted is changing the model. I'm talking about
> changing the metamodel, which is a profoundly different kind of
> change.
I think pacifism can change the metamodel. And even if it hasn't,
which I think it has, you can always invent a new vision, like Marx
and many others. Historical dialectics are what we need - not more
suffering. Keep in mind that no revolution has ever taken place,
atleast to my knowledge (I guess it comes down to what you call a
revolution...), without a strong utopian vision.
> We're not on the same page, Dan. Armed force is clearly more
> effective at changing an enterprise than pacifism and passive
> resistance. Armed force has already destroyed a lot of infrastructure
> in Yugoslavia. That is a big change.
Yes it is a big change! It means a lot more lives have to be
sacrificed, and more get to starve when they go back to their
homeland, without the infrastructure, and with a devestated
economy. Again, I challenge you to read the history of pacifism,
and guess again...
> I don't take your point. These great men did not change the
> fundamentals of the systems they were working with. The governments
> of India, South Africa, and Poland are based on the same metamodel as
> the governments they replaced.
It may be true that the metamodels were not changed, whatever is
meant by that term. But like Margaret Mead said, "All significant
change in history has not taken place by goverments or
institutions, but by individual change." I think the key to that
phrase, is that the metamodels don't add up to much when it
comes to change. Who is the individual in the government that is
making the changes? Who is the individual outside of the
government that is making the changes? I think that is the real
question. Because personally, as an anarchist, I don't care whether
my own country is a rep. democracy or a dictatorship - it's who's in
office or leading the revolution that counts.... Otherwise, it's a scary
country either way you have it. Lots of human rights violations....
Fundamentally, it's scrapping the state government - that is what
we are all about.... if you are an anarchist.
> Yes, please, because I'm not defending armed conflict in any of the
> situations you cite. I'm saying that the armed conflicts started
> despite "your" efforts, and I believe that "your" efforts do not
> ensure that the same armed conflicts won't start again. I think
> Buddhism has a lot to answer for here, by teaching that life is about
> suffering.
Yes, but neither does war. War does not ensure that things don't
happen again. Read the history of pacifism, and you will find that
century old human struggles were ended that way. You will find
real change. But beyond that, yes, pacifism does not change
things, like as if it could enbalm the world with solified ideals. They
have to first change the hearts and lives of people - and "live" and
"breath" in the tomorrow, fluidly, to allow for the only kind of
providence that will make a difference - a difference so profound
that it will make war look silly. And I believe it already has....
Perhaps there is even a need for a pacifist-anarchist polticial
theory. I think there is....
> Regardless of which method you choose, changing minds is what it's all
> about.
Agreed. I'm in the middle of exams at the moment. I will respond
further - but I will not divulge the entire history of pacifism without
the argumenties first cracking upon a book. I apologize for that - I
just don't have the time at the moment.
Take care... Melisa
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