Submitted to veg-raw by: Nieft / Secola <[log in to unmask]>
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> = Kirt >> = Peter
>To propose that common fruitarian/NH deficiencies >will occur on an
>instincto diet is pretty farfetched.
True. But instinctos may tend to eat too many fruits and not enough
vegetables, too many calories, too high a percentage of raw foods for
some people to handle, non-optimal balance of macronutrients and most
of all depend too much on what their instincts (or lack of) are telling
them in situations, where non-instinctive therapeutic interventions
might be of greater help. If indeed Burger's wife did die, because she
was not eating enough protein, as Burger allegedly claimed, maybe some
blood work f. ex. earlier on would have pointed this out to her. Now,
all we have is rumors and second-guessing.
>But that, of course, makes me one of your self-deluding, slow death,
>sheep.
If you indeed are so anti-research, as you come off, yes. Though
instinctos are more like foxes than sheep, thinking that they by giving
in to romantic notions of desire have outsmarted the rest of us by
uncovering one of the big secrets of evolution. They may indeed have,
that is not my point, but until they stop acting like foxes and start
giving the cortex & human conciousness a little more credence & respect
and begin to identify less personally with instincto in a
semi-cult-like fashion, it is going to be a hard sell.
>Clearly there are instincto sheep, but the situation is
>not entirely analogous to NH. The revere (rather undeserved in my
>mind)which NHers hold for Shelton in spite of evidence to the contrary
>(his own death, the "logical leaps" of his arguments, the common
>deficiencies reported, etc) isn't much held for Guy-Claude Burger.
Despite of all his logical leaps, the best of Shelton's works can match
Burger's any day. ( page 83-87 in NH M2M #25 convinced me)
>No institution has arisen which considers Burger "the greatest genious
>of modern times in his relentless search for the Truth and Self-less
>Triumph over the forces of Evil" as we so often hear about Shelton.
Are you sure you were not reading Stalin's self-biography? :)
>The majority of people who I have encountered (a dozen or so) find him
>to be less than heroic.
Are these 12 people to be considered "mainstream" instinctos?
>He is a "hero in his own mind". It seems more common for Nhers to
>follow the herd from what I've seen.
N.H and Shelton have been around much longer than instincto and Burger.
Who knows, how his followers will look upon him, when he is dead? There
is nothing like death to upgrade one's social status. Besides, Burger
deserves a lot more recognition than he is getting these days, which I
understand is nothing but the scorn of the tabloids.
>Perhaps in trying to give up your own "sheep tendencies", you have a
>new leader (scientific research) which will probably not provide you
>with the answers in your lifetime, which means you are "safe" from
>eating in a way which conforms to any not-yet-supported-by-research
>belief, and "safe" from getting trapped in a new cult.
This is always a risk. Hopefully, I will not fall into that trap. If I
do, I trust you will let me know. :)
>There is also the sharade of scientific research to contend with.
Indeed, but it is with science like it is with durians - not all that
looks, stinks & tastes like shit is always shit. :)
>I'm sorry if I'm sounding harsh, but the lectures you provide me in
>how I'm little more than a dupe for
Common Kirt. You have my outmost repect. Have you been eating too many
mixed salads again? :)
>1] not expecting the "perfect diet" to make_all_ the difference in my
>life,
So, you have different expectations than I. That does not make you a
"dupe" - a little misguided maybe :) - but not a "dupe".
>and 2] being attracted to the tenets of instincto on intellectual
>grounds and experimenting for myself with an as open mind as humanly
>possible,
Not true. I admire that.
>and 3]questioning those same tenets on the basis of my experience
Nothing wrong with that - though a little more openess to scientific
inquiry and critical thinking would not hurt.
>(which you have somehow completely ignored in your attempts to make me
>see some sort of light which you are privy to)
I do not see how asking for scienctific validation, expressing
carefully considered opinions and concerns and applying some critical
thought is in any way invalidating of your experience.
>3]sharing my experience/POV about same on veg-raw, are getting old.
Not to me. I am looking much forward to reading your up-coming book on
instincto. Consider this a pre-order.
>If you are so adamant about herdism, I would think you would welcome
>talk from an experienced intincto who has not swallowed its tenets
>hook, line, and sinker.
You must be eating more than just mixed salads these days. :) Even more
closed-minded instintos than yourself are welcome. :) I have always
enjoyed the company of instinctive eaters, which I cannot say for
Natural Hygenists. This does not mean, though, that I think, they have
found the holy grail. (secret of evolution, mayby :))
>Pages 19 & 20, Pottinger's Cats (1983, Pottinger-Price Foundation). It
>isn't a very "satisfying" summary, only discussing in general the
>experiments and results.
What about the guinea pigs?
>I'm not dispairing, but here you flip flop from the need for research
>to anecdotes.
I have a great need for both research & anecdotes. - Just like I need
sex both rough & gentle.:)
>There are long-lived individuals eat mostly cooked foods,
>smoking and drinking.
Like the oldest person in the world, a 122 year old French woman, who
every day smokes 1 cigarette and has a little chocolate. For health &
longevity moderation & low levels of stress are probably more
important, than what we eat. And reverse, a good diet will bring about
lower levels of stress & moderation. Since moderation is not an
instincto virtue either evolution or instincto is need of a tune-up -
(i.e. if one gives any credence to anecdotal evidence like the example
above or to the numerous calorie striction experiments done on rodents
+ a few on primates).
>Are you, perhaps, holding out for the perfect diet, which will make it
>all better?
You bet I am. I am tired of being a human guinea pig.
>It may not be worth the sruggle.
I will take the gamble. Even if I first find the perfect diet, when I
am 93, I should still have a few good years left. :)
>Bruno would be most qualified to speak of meta (and may do so, though
>his "heavily researched" book on instincto hasn't arrived yet so I
>don't know)since he is a "reformed meta" person from what I
>understand.
Not in his book, though he did talk about it briefly in his workshop in
Marine County earlier this year.
>>Before or after they leave the cult? Relying exclusively on
>>testimonial evidence is a dangerous path to walk IMO. The placebo
>>effect is simply too powerful.
>Science is subject to the placebo effect too, perhaps more insideously
>so, since many think it is beyond such worries.
Yes, but at least science is trying to overcome it, while the purpose
of cult-like paradigms is to enhance it exclusively. Do not get me
wrong. I am a great believer in placebo - the power of the mind & of
faith should never be underestimated - I just think it has its
limitations.
>We've had blood work done (job/immigration requirements) over the past
>several years. Unless you're starting with some deficiency,
If I were not, I doubt I would need to improve my diet.
>I'm not sure its going to mean much for you. Our levels are always
>within normal ranges, and vary from test to test.
I'd love to see this blood work. I am mostly interested in blood lipids
& amino acid profiles. Have you kept any of the records from before you
went instincto?
>This is an old (4 years?) contact address. My letter of inquiry went
>unaswered. Maybe you'll have better luck.
Thanks for the splinter info!
>Why am I really attracted to instincto and primal?
I meant, what attracted you to instincto & primal philosophy on a more
personal level. I always find it interesting, how and why we are
attracted to the philosophies we choose - what in our personal make-up
and backgrounds that makes us click with certain ways of thinking. But,
I have a hunch that this topic is better left for some other time and
place.
>Peter, I really think we have played this debate out.
You must be kidding! It has only begun, if not here then in NH M2M.
>We agree on much,
That is true. Though, let's hold back with the partnership a little
longer. :)
>and have repeated oursleves (to our mutually deaf ears :)) too many
>times.
I do not have this experience at all. I am sorry you feel this way.
>I don't want you to agree with me about my experience/perceptions,
I would love you to agree with mine. :) - seriously.
>but exploring these issues here on veg-raw has been interesting.
And would be even more interesting to explore further.
>I wish you every grace in settling into a sustainable pattern for
>yourself, which I have no doubt you will!
See, there is hope for me after all. :)
Best, Peter
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