> Kirt said:
> >> It sounds like the USA is a quite different scene than Europe as
> >>regards  militant vegans. Several popular books promote the
> >>nutritional, ethical,  and spiritual superiority of veganism, and a
> >>cult has grown up around the ideation, which at times seems to
be of  such a size as to be almost "mainstream". (snip) Since militant
> >>vegans are so ethically superior and so much gentler than the
> >>unconverted, they can define cruelty and violence in anyway
they care  to and then apply it to others while ignoring critics of their own
> >>behavior, or calling them clouded/perveted from cooked/animal
foods, and charging them as violent and unethical.
> >>While I appreciate and agree with your basic premise of leaving
them be, it may be that you don't "fully appreciate" how it is in the
USA.

 Martha said:
> >Kirt, have you reconsidered your position against hyperbole? You
> >make it sound like USA is crawling with vegans. Or are most of
the vegans in America hanging out in San Marcos?  I don't know
ANY vegans personally (that is, in "real" life, as opposed to E-life).
> >I've met two before in my entire (considerable  ;-)) life, and both
> >were quite nonmilitant and nonproselytizing about it. Etc, etc, etc.

Peter said:
> Martha, Why the sharp tone?

I guess I thought I was cool enough with Kirt that he wouldn't take
my tone sharper than I meant it  [Kirt, my apologies if I was mistaken.

Peter continues:
> I think it is quite obvious that Kirt was
> not referring to his own social life but rather to the
> dietary/alternative circles he gets around in on & off-line.
This wasn't obvious to me at all.

Peter:
> Being from Europe myself...

Where are you from, and how long have you been in CA (just so
you're sure, I'm asking this friendly-like  :-) )?

Peter:
> ... and now living in California, I feel I speak
> with some authority on the subject. With the exception of Great
Britain   veganism probably has its biggest stronghold in the USA - in
France it  is virtually non-existent. In your part of the country you obviously do
> not bump into many vegans, but here in California they are not
> surprisingly quite prevalent.

I live in Santa Barbara, CA, where I have lived most of my life.  The
only other places I've lived were also in CA (Santa Maria & San
Diego).

Peter:
> I know nothing about the numbers but in
> whatever functions I meet them, they can be quite vocal.
> You say that your vegan friends are non-militant and
>non-proselytizing.  I believe this holds true for many vegans.
>I have met Ric Lambart  at numerous raw food events,
>and you could not meet a nicer man - the same
> goes for the NFL folks. I truly mean this from the bottom of my
>heart.  However, when you start to seriously challenge some of their
>vegan  tenets, you will encounter their darker sides like we have seen in
>.this  forum. I think this is true of most people who believe in something.
> You are then considered as a threat & part of the problem and
> treated accordingly with the ends justifying the means.(personal
> attacks - mockery & ridicule - evading issues - lies - not answering
> questions - copping to holier-than-thou attitudes - subscribing to
> extreme political & religious ideas.)

You've covered a lot of ground here.  I think you're overgeneralizing.
 I would guess a lot of vegans, rather than being threatened, simply
get tired of getting the 3rd degree about nutrition, and of feeling like
an oddity, and get a little defensive.  Maybe like some instinctos?

A quiz:  What do you call someone who is better than one who is
holier-than-thou?  (this is rhetorical - I don't have an answer)

Peter:
> In order not to be unfair I have gone through all the vegans I know,
> and I am happy to admit that I in the heat of all these debates have
> forgotten that I actually do know a few who are very tolerant and
> non-judgmental people. They are the "true" vegans and have my
deepest respect. Vegan zealots on the other hand are the "false" vegans
who are just using veganism as a vehicle for their own personal agendas,
and I  seriously question if they deep down really give a hoot about the
> (vegan)cause they claim to have embraced.
Well, maybe, and maybe not.  We may never know.

Cheers,
Martha