Kirt said:
>> It sounds like the USA is a quite different scene than Europe as
>>regards  militant vegans. Several popular books promote the
>>nutritional, ethical,  and spiritual superiority of veganism, and a
>>cult has grown up around the ideation, which at times seems to be of
>>such a size as to be almost "mainstream". (snip) Since militant
>>vegans are so ethically superior and so much gentler than the
>>unconverted, they can define cruelty and violence in anyway they care
>>to and then apply it to others while ignoring critics of their own
>>behavior, or calling them clouded/perveted from cooked/animal foods,
>>and charging them as violent and unethical.
>>While I appreciate and agree with your basic premise of leaving them
>>be, it may be that you don't "fully appreciate" how it is in the USA.

Martha said:
>Kirt, have you reconsidered your position against hyperbole? You
>make it sound like USA is crawling with vegans. Or are most of the
>vegans in America hanging out in San Marcos?  I don't know ANY
>vegans personally (that is, in "real" life, as opposed to E-life).
>I've met two before in my entire (considerable  ;-)) life, and both
>were quite nonmilitant and nonproselytizing about it.  Perhaps you are
>>self-selecting acquaintances by meeting people through
>organizations and functions with a dietary focus. I draw friends and
>acquaintances from the ranks of co-workers, neighbors, relatives, in
>other words, more of a "general population."

Martha, Why the sharp tone? I think it is quite obvious that Kirt was
not referring to his own social life but rather to the
dietary/alternative circles he gets around in on & off-line.
Being from Europe myself and now living in California, I feel I speak
with some authority on the subject. With the exception of Great Britain
veganism probably has its biggest stronghold in the USA - in France it
is virtually non-existent. In your part of the country you obviously do
not bump into many vegans, but here in California they are not
surprisingly quite prevalent. I know nothing about the numbers but in
whatever functions I meet them, they can be quite vocal.
You say that your vegan friends are non-militant and non-proselytizing.
I believe this holds true for many vegans. I have met Ric Lambart at
numerous raw food events, and you could not meet a nicer man - the same
goes for the NFL folks. I truly mean this from the bottom of my heart.
However, when you start to seriously challenge some of their vegan
tenets, you will encounter their darker sides like we have seen in this
forum. You are then considered as a threat & part of the problem and
treated accordingly with the ends justifying the means.(personal
attacks - mockery & ridicule - evading issues - lies - not answering
questions - copping to holier-than-thou attitudes - subscribing to
extreme political & religious ideas.)
In order not to be unfair I have gone through all the vegans I know,
and I am happy to admit that I in the heat of all these debates have
forgotten that I actually do know a few who are very tolerant and
non-judgmental people. They are the "true" vegans and have my deepest
respect. Vegan zealots on the other hand are the "false" vegans who are
just using veganism as a vehicle for their own personal agendas, and I
seriously question if they deep down really give a hoot about the
(vegan)cause they claim to have embraced.

Best, Peter
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PS. To everybody: When responding to a post please mention the name of
the person you are responding to at least once. This will make it
easier to follow the threads - especially for people going through the
archives.