Concerning Kirt's post of 7/4/97, topic: Re: GC Burger arrested
(Stefan):

Kirt, you are still in your negative and depressive mood. I sound like
a broken record but this is again my impression.
Your posts are full of negativity. It takes a considerable amount of
energy to answer them because the negativity must be compensated.
It's typical for you, that you switched into these bad news immediately
while you didn't contribute a cent to all previous discussions on
this list, e.g. the food combination questions of Ellie, where I would
have appreciated your experience a lot.

There is a post from Bo7b from 6/27/97 containing these lines:
>Jerry replied, "Each morning I wake up and say to myself, Jerry, you
>have two choices today.  You can choose to be in a good mood or you can
>choose to be in a bad mood.'  I choose to be in a good mood. Each time
>something bad happens, I can choose to be a victim or I can choose to
>learn from it. I choose to learn from it.  Every time someone comes to
>me complaining, I can choose to accept their complaining or I can point
>out the positive side of life. I choose the positive side of life."

Thank you for this inspiring story, Bob and although I was a bad guy
and deleted it (knowing that I have it in the archives ;-)) it is
describing the admittedly ideal way to treat things: positive.

Obviously you choose to be in a bad mode each day, Kirt. And you
choose, to be a victim of bad news and point out the negative side
of life.

That's    y o u r    problem.    :-( :-(

So I will make it short here, just setting some things straight,
which weren't clear. (Uh! Rereading this I find I could have written
lots of more text - but "short" is relative :-))

Kirt:
>What are the writers supposed to understand of instinctive nutrition?

The writers seemed to fail to understand the instinctive lifestyle that
comes together with instinctive nutrition. This failure let them mis-
interpret everything they watched during their stay at Montrame.

If you come home and find the door of your house broken and see
someone heavily working in your house, you would at first suspect him
to be a burglar. Now you come closer to the scene: really, a burglar,
because you don't know him.
And then he tells you, that while passing your house, he saw smoke
coming out of one of the windows, smashed the front door to go in and
extinguished the fire. And right: there is something burned in the
kitchen (I hear you are cooking again... :-)) and his story is ob-
viously true.
So you thank the "burglar" for his work and invite him to a glass
of coconut juice... :-)

Kirt:
>And what are the _facts_ in your opinion?

I don't know and nobody will ever know, except for those who were
immediate witness of what happened. I just wanted to point out, that
a good journalist doesn't hold back what he knows.

Kirt:
>Have they not exceeded the limits of what _you_ tolerate as well?

Difficult to say, because I couldn't translate the whole article.
Thanks to Jean-Louis who translated major disgusting sections of the
article (but that was after my first reaction).
Anyway it doesn't matter if I tolerate something. So why do you ask?

Kirt:
>Especially the "worst children" joining any cult may find it
>satisfying. By what standards do you see that children were becoming
>loving beings?

It was second hand information and I wrote that. So you should ask
the persons reporting this, by which standards they judged. You are at
the wrong address with me.

Kirt:
>Psychologists of nearly any persuasion probably consider the whole
..
>to bugger children IMNSHO.

Nothing to comment here. I don't know what you are aiming at. Con-
clusions for treating instinctive needs of children are missing.
I find only negativity here.

Kirt:
>But I am very curious: how is ORKOS in danger? Is it because

Yes, you are curious to hear more negative news. That's you. Typical.

If Burger was arrested for the bad article in L'Express it is perhaps
not too far-fetched to guess, that the police even would try to shut
down Orkos because of the slanderous claims about their profits.

Bad news again for you: they didn't. Orkos continues.

>>Stefan:
>>I know, that the prices of Orkos are realistic and that there are no
>>profits at all. Anything else is plain slanderous.

>Kirt:
>How do you know this? From talking to ORKOS folks?

Jean-Louis asked the same question with nearly the same words. So
I am getting two flies with one hit as we say in Germany.

Some years ago a german, I know personally, tried to set up a company
like Orkos, selling only instincto quality food. Because he couldn't
"exploit" his workers, like Orkos does, he had to charge even higher
prices than Orkos. And he got lots of trouble with the suppliers he
ordered from. He saw that he permanently had to control the quality
of the incoming foods (like Orkos does).

He finally went down financially because there were not enough
customers to pay his prices. And he is surely not a guy who wanted
to make big profits out of this business. He just wanted to have a
reliable second supply (counting Orkos as the first one).

That's that about Orkos' prices.

Kirt:
>And at the risk of being slanderous, I am dubious about any organization
>which relies on the taste-change reports of a certain Guy-Claude Burger
>as the bottom line in its quality control.

Since you aren't living in Europe you can't speak about the quality
of Orkos' products.
Fact is, that in all the years I am ordering foods from them, they
   n e v e r    sold me a denatured food, not even accidentally. And
this is, what other instinctos say. I don't know    a n y    instincto
who has ever experienced the opposite.
In the early years of Orkos, they may have had some accidents, though.
But they were not so much because of the testers (whoever they are,
including GCB) failure but because of a too low frequency of tests.

Kirt:
My hope is that this latest scandal will be the end of Guy-Claude and
..
Your socalled "hopes" are mostly negative. That's your problem.

You always hick-hack on your guess of people needing gurus. Well, it was
the press here, titling "... un gourou de pedophilia" and it was the
press declaring GCB to be a guru.
For me he isn't. But for you, in your subconscious, I assume. That would
explain your disappointed reaction and your negativity pretty well.

Kirt:
>But what better place for him to play martyr, eh? If every instincto

Contentless, negative talk. Save me the time to answer it.

Concerning Kirt's post of 7/4/97, topic: Re: GC Burger arrested
(Jean-Louis):

Jean-Louis:
>>2) Many children coming at Montrame, of various ages (boys and girls)
>>have undergone sexual practices of various kinds (I am reluctant to
>>translate the details).

Kirt:
>I wish you would. It's kinda hard to know how disgusted to be. I'm
>especially curious about the ages of the children.

Your reaction is supposed to be that of the average cooked eater
reading L'Express. Congratulations. Is this level all you can offer?

Jean-Louis:
>>Yes, but they say, p. 51, 2nd column: "Guy-Claude Burger's wife
>>had been beaten, humiliated for years by her husband until she
>>died of a cancer, in 1994, far away from the Chateau, so not to cast
>>any doubt on instinctotherapy".

Kirt:
>Wow. Is this how carefully Stefan read the article before he gives us
>his own version of the facts? Hopefully it is a language problem, but
>if so, how can he be so cavalier in his impressions of the article.
>Anyway, thanks for clearing that up Mr. Tu.

Sorry I didn't translate this part of the article and was misinformed
about the date of Nicole's death. I asked other instinctos now and still
have no definite date but the assumed year is always 1994.

Anyway, this doesn't change anything in my argumentation. It even
makes it stronger: the writer's of the L'Express article obviously in-
cluded very old photos for their revelation story. I've got no idea
what they intended to prove with these photos for the actual case.
But this is my impression with all of the photos of the article.
Photographing some naked boys on a self-made boat is plain ridiculous
if the intention was to prove their abuse. For me it looked, as if
they were having lots of fun on their boat.

By the way...
perhaps the journalists should have taken the opening photo of the
heavily discussed NFL book for the article... :-) I'am sure, nobody
would have noticed.
(For the new members of the list: this photo shows three naked boys,
aged beginning twenty, in a tree).


Bo7b:
>But, Kirt, seems like you're condemning
>him as a scientist, researcher, teacher, guru, human, etc.  (eg, "Do
>we really need anyone to tell us what our nature is?").  Well, yeah,
>SOME of us do.

I agree with you, Bob. Not everyone is the born leader/searcher who
will go his own way. There seem to be others who are a kind of
followers. Personally I consider them to be mentally immature but
who knows? If everyone wanted to be a leader, society would encounter
a bunch of problems, eh?
At least there are times in the life of a adult human, where he/she
needs advice from others, maybe even a guru. (I would prefer the term
teacher).

Thank you for your positive post on all these negative news, Bob!

Ellie:
>IMO his "meta" philosophy stems from his addiction to sex. IMO
>homosexuality and all addictions have their source in co-dependency
..
Hm. What I really don't know is, if homosexuality didn't ocurr in
ancient times. I think it did. Then it must something natural, although
not appearing frequently.
I also doubt that GCB is addicted to sex but the translations of
Jean-Louis really sound bad.

Ellie:
>I hope that he hits a bottom and gets into recovery, and
>that this whole issue  brings new light on living instinctively.

The question would be, what GCB is supposed to recover from. My two
cents: his amalgam fillings, he frequently denies to give problems.
Hg has severe impacts on psyche and personality. You would be perfect-
ly right with your toxic minds explanations then.

Thank you for your analysis, Ellie. It's always interesting to get
your point of viewing things.

Karl:
>>This is very hard language.

Kirt:
>Really? I thought I was being very reserved about this issue.

I wonder how your contributions will look like if you are leaving
your reserve. :-(

Kirt:
>It certainly isn't clear to me that
>Guy-Claude qualifies as a scientist, researcher, or guru. He relies

Given this, why did you stick to instinctive nutrition for such a long
time? And why were you excited and positive about IN just some bloody
months ago? It's   y o u   who has changed, not instincto theory.

Kirt:
>You're still on a high from your conversion to instincto, Bo7b, and
>relative to your former raw vegan diet this is very understandable.

And you, Kirt are still in your low from your latest experiences. How
sad, that you are transferring this low to everything around you now.
But that's the way people do always, I suppose. :-( You can't leave
your own skin, as we say in Germany (hope this makes sense to you).

Kirt:
>Somewhere down the road it would be nice
>if instincto rubbed elbows with the other emerging paleo-diets and
>evolved into something greater than the sum of its parts, but with
>Montrame's track record screwing its fledgling reputation up but good,
>I wonder how long in the future it might be.

Here is a good example of a person, who needs a leader. That's you,
Kirt!
My proposition: forget about the leaders and Montrame. Exchange
experience with others (you already do with this list) and develop
instincto theory on your own. For me this is an exciting idea. I'm
already practising it. Why do I need Mr. Burger to do further deve-
lopment on instincto theory?
I've got lots of theories, hypotheses, guesses and other tracks to
follow. Will be an interesting path. I am my own leader, without an
owner's manual for my body, as Bob stated so marvelous.

Karl,
thank you for your positive contributions to these issues.

Instinctive regards,

Stefan