Submitted to veg-raw by: Ward Nicholson <[log in to unmask]>
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Peter Brandt writes--
>In the meantime, The Natural Hygeine Many to Many, which you
>might have heard of, has quite a few instincto participants and a
>lively on-going debate on the pros and cons of the instincto life
>style that I think you would enjoy being part of.

Hi Peter, thanks for the plug for the NH M2M. As its publisher and
coordinator, I've been hesitant to advertise here for fear of crashing
someone else's party and the internet ethic of "no advertising" in email
groups. But I felt I owed you a thanks here for the mention. While I'm on
the topic, though, I might mention to other Veg-Raw participants here that
since a few M2M participants have dropped out either due to burn-out or
life circumstances the last few issues, even though the page count has
remained very high due to heavy participation by existing members I would
like to see a few new writers to replace the ones who have dropped, to
maintain diversity. Anyone here interested, just query me in private email.
(I don't think it would be appropriate to have an extended discussion on
the list itself, and maybe this invitation here is not even appropriate.)

Kirt:
>>veg-raw could be so much more lively, doncha think? Come on guys and
>>gals!

Peter
>I second that motion. There is at least 100 subscribers to this list.
>Let's hear from some of you!

Peter, my experience having been on the internet for a few years is that it
takes many more subscribers than 100 on an email list to maintain a good
volume of postings. Like anything else in life, you have an 80/20 rule (20%
of whatever-it-is is responsible for 80% of the action), but in email
forums the ratio seems to be even more lopsided--maybe more like 90/10 or
95/5. Many people on the internet prefer to simply lurk and not expose
themselves in a public forum in front of people they don't know or can't
see. (On the other hand, others are *encouraged* to post by that very same
set of conditions, so I guess it takes both kinds!)

I also subscribe to the t-and-f (track-and-field) email list which has 2500
members worldwide now (has grown phenomenally from just a few hundred 2-3
years ago) and it took maybe 500 members, maybe more than that, before a
steady stream of traffic (say, 15-20 messages a day or more) developed.

By the way, do you intend to implement a "digest" mode here on Veg-Raw
eventually? I hope so. I use email for business as well as personal, and
without a way to separate the personal postings (like Veg-Raw) from
business email, a person's email box can get completely flooded if you
subscribe to active email lists without the option of receiving them in
digest mode instead of as single postings. (Also some people get charged by
the number of email messages they receive, so a digest mode is a
much-appreciated--and even demanded--courtesy by people with those types of
accounts.)

The t-and-f list now generates anywhere from 20 to 50 messages a day, and
during the Olympics went totally bonkers with maybe 75 or more a day.
Without their nicely packaged digest mode (all posts compiled into one
single email message labeled "t-and-f" that you can easily segregate from
your other email), I would simply have had to sign off. Veg-Raw is no big
problem for me in that regard right now, but if the posting level doubled
or tripled from what it is now, I would probably sign off if no digest mode
were to be instituted. As it is now, it is a minor irritant not having
digest, but I can live with it for the time being. Just a suggestion.

Regarding myself posting personally, I have not done so here but once
before, and do not plan on posting much, for 2-3 reasons:

(1) I am somewhat burned-out on the internet after having been online since
1989. It is a gigantic flood of information with no quick and effective way
to scan things quickly and edit out the crap from the gold. Also, my
experience is once you start posting much in a public forum and people
start replying to you, all of your time starts getting eaten up just
extending people the courtesy of a reply which of course I feel I owe them
:-) (and usually enjoy) but I've had to start drawing the line somewhere. I
like to lurk and read things, and DO post when I feel impelled, but I've
made the decision to devote my limited energies into writing and research
interests elsewhere for now. Just a question of priorities.

(2) The one-or-two-screenfuls-per-posting ethos on the internet frustrates
me since I like to write essay-style. I get tired of all the one-liners and
sound-bites typical of Usenet newsgroups and email lists which often give
me a disjointed feeling after reading too many, and yearn for more
in-depth-type thinking and analysis. Yet!--I well understand from my own
impatience with long-winded posts from others (just like my own! :-O ) just
how difficult it is to read lengthy commentaries at a computer screen if
they not carefully composed. (This is one reason I continue to publish the
M2M and plan to for the foreseeable future--print is more my style and also
not so conducive to flames and emotionally-overwrought misunderstandings as
the net seems to be.)

Thus it is something of a dilemma, and while I have learned how to alter my
posting style to "conform" to the medium when necessary, I often simply
choose not to. Instead I simply post very infrequently, but when I do, I
may post lengthy stuff. Hopefully, posting only infrequently insures the
long posts don't wear out my welcome. (I've also found from reading others'
posts that those who post less frequently--but in more depth--usually
elicit more serious reading attention from ME; and that's something I would
hope to be able to emulate if possible.)

(3) Lastly, while as you may know, Peter, I started out believing 100% in
the virtues of a total raw-food diet, I have slowly been forced to change
my mind about its efficacy for everyone, through (a) personal experience of
having tried it myself and watching my health decline somewhat, (b) through
the stories of attempts that have been made by people who have told their
stories in the M2M, and (c) through ongoing research I have been doing into
the prehistoric picture of the human and hominid evolutionary line
involving the historical use of fire to prepare foods, and rates of genetic
change in becoming adapted to such changes. The confluence of these three
different experiences/lines of inquiry have convinced me that all-raw is
not the be-all/end-all. (By the way, I enjoyed your review of Nature's
first law in this regard, Peter--and also yours, too, Kirt. (By the way,
this evolutionary research as well as my summary of what we've seen in the
M2M both physically and psychologically will be featured in a 3-part series
of interviews I'll be giving in Chet Day's "Health & Beyond" newsletter
starting in October, for those who are interested.)

Anyway, to get into much more depth here about my own views about a total
raw-food diet I feel would only create acrimony and hard feelings here on
Veg-Raw, which seems to be a moral support group for raw-food enthusiasts
just as much as it is a discussion group. I wouldn't want to spoil that,
and generally am not one to voice my opinions more than once in a forum
where I anticipate they would not be welcome. (Very briefly, experience of
people in the Natural Hygiene M2M seems to show that only about 10% or 15%
of people who attempt a total raw-foods diet actually are able to thrive on
it. The rest's health seems to do better with the inclusion of at least
some cooked foods such as potatoes, grains. That's all I'll say here--if
you are interested in discussing any of this further, please address your
replies to me in private email so we don't burden the list with unwanted
discussion.)

Oh yes--in closing... Peter you commented on my earlier post--
>>Hi Elly, I tried it for a month or two recently (the Cell-Tech package
>>of Alpha and Omega Sun plus enzymes), and though I was optimistic
>>about it experienced no noticeable effect either positive or negative.

>Spirit moves in mysterious ways. Ward, maybe you need to take it a
>little longer before feeling any effect from it.

Basically what it comes down to Peter is that I have been living a
financially very marginal life on the edge the last few years. I was only
able to try an initial free batch because of the largesse of my mom, who
was a distributor temporarily, and gave me the supply to try out at her
expense. Once the SBGA ran out, though, it ran out. And I simply couldn't
have afforded the very expensive $80/month or whatever it is for Cell
Tech's stuff after that either. Also, my experience in the past with any
changes to my diet I've experimented with is that 1-2 months is enough to
at least see if there is going to be some sort of *trend* or not, however,
modest it may be at first (and freely granting that it may take many months
for the trend to fully play itself out, but I've usually always noticed
changes within this initial time frame.)

Keep up the good work with Veg-Raw. I look forward to seeing many more
members here and hearing an ever-growing diversity of views. From what I
can tell, this is THE "watering hole" on the internet for veg/raw/natural
hygiene/instincto eaters, in its nascent stages. Those who are in the
market first get the "spoils," and looks to me as if Veg-Raw is the first
stake out the veg/raw/n.h./instincto territory on the net. I'd bet willing
to be that once word starts filtering out, the list will find itself in the
midst of a mushrooming growth phase sooner or later.

--Ward Nicholson <[log in to unmask]> Wichita, KS