Hi Mark and Peter,

I switch into your heavy discussion from my point of view as an
instinctive eater. RAF is part of my diet and I eat it if my body sig-
nals me to do so. All of my food comes from Orkos Diffusion and is sent
to me on my order. This should suffice as introduction. Now to the dis-
cussion:

Mark:
>When I eat an alfalfa sprout, a living being, I am a killer.  If I feel
>remorse or guilt about being a sprout killer, I might choose to tell
>myself that I performed the act with kindness, compassion and mercy.
>Telling myself this allows me to cover up my guilt feelings and to feel
>better about my sprout-killing.  But I contend this is self-deception.

Sure, whatever I eat is killed if it lived before. Since I'm eating
only natural raw foods, they all can be said to be living. Even an
apple is living after it has been harvested. Proof: Plant it into the
earth and a new tree will grow.

What I do not understand here is the issue with the "guilt feelings".
I assure you, that I have     n o     guilt feelings neither when
eating an apple nor a piece of fish or meat.
The only way I could have guilt feelings, I can see here, were, if I
had ordered some food although I had no need for it. That would result
in a unnecessary kill then (in case of animal food or harvested sprouts)
and there would be a reason for me to feel guilty of killing without
a reason.
Still even in this case I mostly lack feelings of guilt because errors
are human and I do not    i n t e n t i o n a l l y    order foods I
don't need. There are rare occasions, where I must throw away a whole
lot of a food I don't need (and therefore can't eat) and couldn't give
to another instincto. In these cases I sometimes think "it's a pity,
that I have to throw away this now". That's all. Mostly I think "it's
a sin to throw away these perfect fruits/veggies/... that have been
made by mother nature under nearly perfect conditions. One shouldn't
do it"
In fact I try hard to avoid such cases but if your supply is like mine
(packets sent on order) you always have the problem, to determine,
what you will need for the next week. Not too easy for an instinctive
eater even if his situation is relative stable, like mine.

Mark:
>How many of us give any thought to the feelings of plants?

I have some problem here: since plants are lacking a nervous system I
can't see how they could have feelings. Also since plants are immobile,
it seems, that if they had feelings (e.g. pain) that would have given
them an evolutionary disadvantage because other plants without pain
feelings would have survived a bush fire without "emotional" harm, thus
recovering faster than our "feeling plant". So I guess, that plants
have no feelings at all.

Mark:
>Though many would deny it, I
>suggest that it is a rare person who, at some level of their being, has
>been completely untroubled by feelings of guilt, sadness, remorse, etc. in
>connection with killing animals for food.

I have killed animals (small ones) for food because I needed them. Per-
haps I am the rare person here. I felt     n o     guilt/sadness/etc.
when killing them.
The only issue that troubles me when killing, is the issue of not tor-
turing the animal that is to be killed. Since I know, that animals have
feelings, and it is clear from my bodily need, that this kill is
necessary now, it is also clear, that I will kill this special animal,
e.g. a crab sent living to me by Orkos, as quickly as possible, to avoid
suffering.

Side note to Mark: I already discussed the issue of killing animals and
the involved ethics with Jean-Louis. Search the archives for this dis-
cussion. Good search items would be "ethics", "practical ethics". The
latter the title of a book from Peter Singer, discussing ethical issues
lengthy and thouroughly. (I recommend it to you strongly!)

Back to the avoidance of torture if killing:
It contradicts my ethical principles to torture an animal I need for
my nutrition more than strictly necessary. So I will do everything that
is possible, to make the kill as short and painless as possible.

There might be some feelings of guilt in me, when I fail to do so and
therefore torture the animal. This I admit. Beyond this I can't remem-
ber any guilt feelings when I made my kills.

What I also don't understand here, is the issue with "mercyful killing".
Unless I'm killing an animal because it is suffering from a painful di-
sease, to end its suffering, I can't see any mercy involved in my kills.

Mark:
>killing done "mercifully."  After all, how many people really investigate
>whether the animals they eat were killed "mercifully"?

I would put "without unnecessary torture" instead of "mercifully" and then
I am very much concerned about the animals that are killed for me. I ad-
mit that I have not been as successful as I wanted. But the animals I
eat are slaughtered in a slaughterhouse with EU certificate. Orkos has
to use such a house or they couldn't sell their meat in the EU. And
currently there is no way, that Stefan Joest tells the people in that
slaughterhouse about his ethical principles and the practical conse-
quences that should be drawn for slaughtering. Perhaps it will be possible
sometimes and then I will do what I think I have to do. Until then I
accept that our world is not perfect.

Mark:
>Why bother treating them without cruelty if they have "no concept of being
>treated unfairly"?  The fact that you acknowledge it is better to avoid

Simply, because they have feelings and can suffer. Even if an animal has
no concept of time and space and being treated unfairly, it still has fee-
lings and can suffer. So if your ethical principles tell you, that it is
bad, to cause unneccesary suffering (mine do!) you would be better at
bothering about killing without cruelty.

>>Peter:
>>Rather being an issue of hypocrisy is not the core of the matter that you
>>believe that killing and eating another creature is an act of violence in
>>which there is no place for compassion?

Mark:
>It certainly is an act of violence, and I do not see the compassion in this
>specific act.  Why is this so hard for people to accept?

I agree with Mark here. Killing is violence and unless it is done for a
merciful reason as given above (ending suffering from an ailment or other
possibilities) I can't see any mercy involved in this act.
But if you are an instinctive eater and you are sure that you    n e e d
the animal as food, the kill, therefore the violence is strictly necessary
and unavoidable, if you can't get a piece of scavenged food (almost im-
possible in our times). So the violence is unavoidable here and I will
commit this act without further bothering about it.
The tiger kills its prey and the instinctively living human hunter (me)
does the same. Its pure need. I shy to say it but perhaps one could call
this "natural violence" (strange term though).

Mark:
>If you and I are both petting a pig and saying warm and fuzzy things about
>it, and then you proceed to kill and eat the pig, I will no doubt feel that
>you didn't care for the pig as much as I did.

That seems to apply to me. Some months ago I rised a chicken which I had
hatched from an egg. After five weeks I killed it (several reasons, I posted
them to this list. See the archives, search for "hatch"). And after additio-
nal two weeks of aging I ate it.
So you are right, Mark, that I didn't care for the chicken as much as
e.g. a vegetarian friend of mine would have done in the same situation.

If hope my point of view has been useful to this discussion.

Best instinctive wishes,

Stefan
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