Kirt:
>>Well, one could make a case that avos are less natural than mammal milk,
>>eh? What was your overall review of your dairy experiment? Another longtime
>>vegan has shared with me her experiment with raw dairy (fine) and cooked
>>dairy (immediate trouble), but returned to vegan afterwards.

>Tom:
>I found raw milk to be fine, most cooked dairy not so good (except ghee,
>which is OK in very small amounts). Raw cheese is a bit hard to digest; if I eat
>much of it, it feels like lead in the stomach - very heavy, also mucus
>promoting. I am of the opinion that much of the problem people report with
>dairy is due to the fact that it is 1) cooked (pasteurized & homogenized),
and, 2) eaten in the wrong way - refrigerator cold, with meals, with no thought
>given to how well the milk combines with other foods. If you drink milk in
>the Indian way - raw (not pasteurized or homogenized), warm and spiced
>(cardamom,  saffron), after meals (not with meals), and only if the milk combines OK
>with the foods eaten at the meal - then you may find it a very different, and
>positive experience. I still consume a small amount of raw milk (a small
>cup most days).

Hey...Tom and Kirt,

Didn't the List cover the usual mucous generating problems with the raw
dairy?  Been absent as a regular reader of the list for some time (3+
months), so maybe it was discussed.

That was the next to last raw animal product our family quit (honey the
last), and when the dairy vacated our abode, so did mucous problems, colds,
etc.  Dairy (both cow and goat) milks don't closely proximate human milk,
so we weren't surprised at the improvements in our well being once we cut
the delicious liquid (and cheeses) out.

I'd heard many well thought out arguments against dairy products for quite
a few years before I was able to overcome my own addiction to the food, but
have never been sorry...and my kids grew up with excellent teeth and
bones...and were still taller than their parents (my ex-wife and I), sans
dairy.

We even had our own goats early on, and that experience, in and of itself
tended to make more clear why dairy is most likely not very sensible.
You've got to literally steal the milk (admittedly an ethical question to
some, but not to others) from the mammal whose milk you're using, and need
to keep "freshening" the producers by getting them pregnant, but they don't
particularly cooperate, since they throw about as many males as
females...then you've got to figure out what to do with these superfluous
studs.  They, of course, are usually slaughtered.  Again, up reared (for
us) another ethical issue of some weight.

Saw a topic about Steuve Brothers Dairy here in California, but didn't have
time to read it.  They are the family that started the large once raw dairy
firm called Alta Dena (for those of you who might not know that historical
trivia).  They sold out to a French conglomerate some years ago, and my
good friend Paul Virgin, who was with them from almost the very beginning
as their Chief of Public Relations, went with the new owners.  He was a
real pro when it comes to the entire subject of the commercial dairy
industry.  Altadena was hands down the cleanest large dairy in the
industry, back in the post WWII era...all the way up to the sixties and
early seventies, but they still had sizeable internal problems (their
external problems were substantial, since the State of California was
forever trying to shut them down) with simple sanitation...as does any
commercial diary enterprise.  Crowding all those lactating cows into
relatively close quarters, and milking them into high continual stress
levels, had...and still has its inherent problems.  Unlike pastuerizing
dairies, they had to test virtually every batch of milk for coloform and
other pathogenic bacteria...and their lab was busy every day doing all that
checking.  But they still used antibiotics on the cows when they felt it
was "necessary" and idodine wipes on the udders and teats, etc.

One thing I noticed in all the many dairies I investigated in the sixties
and early seventies:  the cows are universally "sick," since their noses
are constantly streaming mucous.  I looked at range cattle, including
hefers, and their noses were normal.  The dairy gang have to pour heavy
loads of protein foods (grains and alfalfa, etc.) into these animals to
make them profitable producers, and, needless to say, this is not without
its disadvantages in respect to the animals' health.  These dairy critters,
even in the fine Alta Dena and Steuve pens, are very crowded, and live and
breathe the toxic by-products of this fecal and urea concentration's
accumulations.

Anyway, John Robbins, in Bohdiland, did some neat and accurate work and
reporting on the dairy industry all on his own.  Docs Klaper and McDougal
also did some notably fine research here, too.

Frankly, sorry Kirt, but we found the eschewing of animal products
extremely liberating, both psychologically and physically.  But, then
again, everyone to their own trip.

Ric Lambart