Martha wrote:
>Seriously, though, from what you just wrote, what would be wrong with
>killing humans, either?
>Kirt wrote many months ago (from NZ) that he saw no difference
>philosophically between eating plants and eating animals.  So my
>question to both you and Kirt is, do you see a difference philosophically
>between eating other animals and eating humans?  If so, what?

I'm a pretty bad philosopher, so bear with me. No, I don't want to eat
humans. Perhaps there is some biological restraint for such behavior (it
wouldn't seem to add to the success of the species). If there is it must
break down under diress. Goodall's chimps were seen to cannabalize (esp a
very neurotic lineage which had some pretty bad early childhood
experiences). There is evidence that certain Neaderthals in particular has
some pretty serious cannabalism going. Plenty of "evidence" for cannabalism
in primitive tribes. Further, there has never been a shortage of humans
killing each other for non-food reasons.

One thing it may be very hard (impossible? because it is so subjective for
me) for folks to understand is that my (un)notions of philosophy,
spiritualism, religion (as well as politics, psychology, etc) have come
tumbling down pretty hard during the last 7 years. I'm a guy, who for
deep-seated reasons was pretty much into intellect stuff, figuring it out,
making sense of it all in a perfect intellectual way. Through my experience
with instincto, primal, and general semantics, I have a hard time giving
autonomous life to any idea these days, including instincto, primal, and
general semantics.

Let me put it this way: Before, I lived in my head to a large degree and
emotions and sensations fell where they may (relatively unexperienced).
Somewhere along the line sensation become primary (instincto does that to
many people), closely followed by emotion, and now ideation just falls
where it may. I find that in retrospect I was barely _experiencing_. I end
up realizing that the only reason we are here is because we are alive.
Moral codes are useful or not, but they aren't Right or Wrong. Thinking of
it in more traditional philosophical terms, I am an extreme materialist.
Life is a collection of specially organised molecules which eventually lose
their organisation. There is no "meaning" to nature or existence, but that
isn't to say it isn't a grand grand event. We can give it all sorts of
meaning, but I find those pat meanings/morals as very lame/empty relative
to the depth and glory of my sensations and emotions and the connection of
it all. However stunted and warped my own human nature is, I am grateful to
have got the whiff of it I have in the last years. Giving my DNA a chance
is more "meaningful" to me than searching for meaning or the "proper" way
to behave. It has been my _repeated_ experience that I can feel my way
along in most any situation, and my need for a comprehensive or consistant
philosphy/ideation/meaning has nearly evaporated. Such selfishness seems to
result in kind, gentle, "social", even altruistic behavior. I end up
behaving pretty good on most "moral conduct scales"(?) though I certainly
flunk the "don't kill another living being" commandment of veganism.

I still have my neo-cortex, and find it very useful, but it has a price. My
thoughts are made-up, perhaps useful, perhaps not, but they are only the
stable boy in the manger of experience (gag?!).

All of which is a long-winded way of unasking your question. I eat animals
as do many many many other animals on the planet. I don't want to eat
humans. I don't have a philosophy which makes sense of that
experience/position/relation to my world. And mostly, I don't want to
change anyone else's philosophy! Some famous guy, once said that he didn't
argue to change the other fellow's mind but to keep them from changing his.
Veg-raw, M2M, etc has been a great exercise in _definition_ for me
(defining myself) but it is rarely more than something to do with my excess
ability to abstract. (It is more when, say, I feel buttons being pushed by
NFL, and it's lovely to feel what that is all about for me, however
clumsily.) I've had the experience where I stop in my tracks and think in a
new way--that's a real rush. It happens when I read postings and when I
write postings. Such is the ironic delight in abstraction. There is joy and
frustration in these dialogues to me, but the "high road" vegetarian
arguments are getting pretty stale. I've said before that Melisa says, "I'd
love to be a fruitarian--if I _could_." To me that says it all. Yes, it's a
pretty idea; yes, it would be great of it were "true", but it is
false-to-experience, both anecdotally and scientifically. There is
_something_ to instincto and our human heritage (however bastardized Zephyr
or I am going about, and it is not the same way, beleive me), and it is
somewhat sad that most raw vegans are so vehemently offended by it. One
thinks, if many other raw folks can't see that there is _something_ to it,
what is the chance that cooked folk (who are theoretically even "farther"
from "instincto" or RAF) will. Will more than a few weirdos like me ever
experience it? Zephyr and I are quite different, but we understand
something pretty deep about each other. There is nothing like
being/tasting/experiencing a whiff of human nature as given. As screwed up
as instinctos are there is something to it, something worth the absurd
bantering with the NFL zealots. Of course, there is a limit, and I've
almost reached it :) <sigh> NFL _will_ "win", they will simply outlast. TC
bites the dust and NFL arises with mango juice on their chins...

One question for you, Martha: When the NFLer's come on like God's chosen,
does that frighten you a bit (as did Zephyr's stuff about death being part
of life)? Or does it reaffirm that you have choosen your
philosophy/morality well? I don't mean for that to sound snotty; indeed, I
am very curious how their rhapsadies ring in other's ears.

What can you expect from Peter, Ward, or I who have been quite prolific? :/
On the other hand, I found Ombodhi's post riviting, gentle, and pretty dang
wise for a young buck.

Here's hoping more of those several dozen lurkers post! <tipping a young
coconut>

Cheers,
Kirt

PS--if anyone knew how many times I had to restrain myself from a cheap
"eating humans slash oral sex double entandre" they would have no doubt
that I am simply an adolecent extra from Wayne's World...but, then again,
there's nothing like being immature for making one feel young again :)