Okay, one more post here to help support the challenge to NFL to be
accountable for their opinions and facts, then I am outta here for a while
to recuperate and take care of some other commitments.
Roy D'Souza writes:
>>What is a "tribe", anyway?
>>Does this imply some kind of sociological bond, that is different from
>>a genetic grouping. (i.e. "chimps who fell in with bad company,
>>formed a tribe, and ended up eating meat?").
And NFL comments:
>Here is the quote from the book (much more detailed than the interview)
>concerning chimps and tribes:
I am not exhaustively familiar with all the chimp literature, but I have
paged or scanned through or seriously studied probably anywhere from 6 to 8
to 10 different field study reports in the last few years. In that time, I
do not recall running across the term "tribe" used to describe chimps.
Those conversant with the literature normally use the term "community" most
frequently or perhaps "population" or "group." [for example see Wrangham
1992; Tutin 1992, Goodall 1986] "Tribe" is normally used to refer to human
beings.
NFL continues:
>Chapter 21 - Anthropology
>"...<snip>...
>Always in denial, cooked-foodists <and instinctos> are quick to point out
>that: humans are carnivorous because "chimpanzees hunt and eat animals." A
>span of six million years separates humans (Homo sapien) from chimpanzees
>(Pan troglodyte). Since chimpanzees are humanity's closest genetic
>relatives then "humans must be meat eaters too." This logic begs a closer
>analysis.
Without even the need to consider chimpanzees for supporting evidence,
hominids are known through archaeological evidence to been have been eating
meat since long before homo sapiens arrived on the scene. Australopithecus,
from around 2.5 to 3.7 million years ago, one of our ancestors, is known to
have eaten some meat as determined by strontium-calcium ratios in bone and
scanning electron microscope studies of teeth microwear [Walker 1996;
Sillen 1992]. Homo habilis ate meat 1.8 million years ago as determined by
the presence of hammerstone percussion marks and other stone tool cut marks
on animal bones [Blumenschine 1992; Megarry 1995]. Meat-eating increased
with homo erectus beginning approximately 1.5 million years ago [Walker
1996]. Homo sapiens evolved approximately 100,000 to 200,000 years ago
[Foley 1995; Groves 1993]; thus the human line had been eating meat by that
time for already 3 million years.
>First of all, only forest-dwelling chimps engage in hunting behavior,
>unlike their savannah relatives. They typically hunt once a week,
>sometimes more, and one kill is spread throughout the adults of the tribe.
>So, raw meat comprises a very small percentage of their overall diet.
I would appreciate seeing a reference for the statement only
forest-dwelling chimps engage in hunting behavior, as I want to track it
down to verify. Raw meat does comprise a small percentage of chimp diet,
approx. 1-2% or so according to tables and charts I have seen, but these
estimates are inexact. On the other hand, animal food in total comprises
somewhere in the neighborhood of 5% maybe 6% of chimp diet, most of which
is insects. [McGrew 1992, Tutin 1992, Wrangham 1992] At this time, I have
heard of only one chimp community (the Kibale population) that does does
not eat insects, though there may be one or two others; however the Kibale
population eats meat. [Wrangham 1992]
>Secondly, massive physiological evidence exists that indicates humans and
>chimpanzees are frugivorous animals (see Appendix B).
Could you please publish at least a few of your citations that we can look
up to see this evidence without have to buy your book to get the appendix?
In studies I have seen, chimpanzees are indeed primarily frugivorous
(eating about 2/3 fruit for common chimps; 80% for bonobo chimps [no ref.
for this factoid, going by memory]); but chimpologists and other observers
do not intend the term to indicate exclusivity in fruit. Common chimps also
eat approx. 20% leaves in their diet, and about 5% animal as noted above,
along with fractions of other non-fruit plant items making up the other 10%
or so. [Goodall 1986, McGrew 1992, Tutin 1992, Wrangham 1992]
>Chimpanzees eat leaves with bactericidal properties immediately after
>consuming >raw flesh to aid in the unnatural digestion of flesh.
I have not heard this in regard to the consumption of the bacterial leaves
immediately after meat, so again, I would like to see a literature
reference I can track down to verify the statement. The recent reference I
have seen from 1990 [Sears 1990] on the eating of Aspilia leaves (which
have high concentrations of the antibiotic thiarubrine-A) by chimps makes
no mention these leaves eaten in conjuction with meat, as noted by three of
the most famous of the chimp-watchers: Jane Goodall and Richard Wrangham,
observing chimpanzees in Gombe; and Toshisada Nishida at the Mahale
Mountains site.
Goodall noted the behavior as far back as 1964 but at the time could not
figure out why the chimps were swallowing these leaves that they did not
chew like other leaves, and it took a long time before it was discovered
the chimps' selectivity of three different kinds of these leaves coincided
with the ones that local human populations also were found to be using for
their medicinal properties. The hypothesis is that chimps are, incredibly,
aware that the leaves can relieve symptoms of diarrhea. In this report,
after intensive investgation, the only connection the researchers could
make was that the seemed to seek out the leaves when they were sick or when
they were suffering bouts of diarrhea.
Unrelated to the Aspilia leaves, there is in fact a behavior of chimps
whereby they eat leaves with meat, but it is the practice known as
"wadging" where the leaves are wadded and stuffed into their palate which
is adapted for this purpose to form a press to suck the juices out of the
meat. This technique is not exclusive to raw meat, being used on fruits as
well, and other soft foods.
>Eating small animals is contrary to the frugivorous biological design of
>the chimpanzee. Thus they fall victim to parasitic diseases.
Chimps do fall victim to parasites, but attributing it solely to
meat-eating is a logical leap I would again like to see references for.
Regarding the "biological design" in regard to frugivorousness and other
"comparative anatomy" arguments used to support arguments for exclusive
fruit-eating or vegetarianism, John McArdle, a primatologist and anatomist,
refutes a number of popular myths about it [McArdle 1996]: The basic point
of misunderstanding among those using correspondences among anatomies of
different animals is that there is not always a one-to-one correspondence
between form and function. "Individual anatomical structures can serve one
or more functions and similar functions can be served by several different
forms."
Examples:
- Most plant eaters have enlarged fermenting chambers to hold food while
microbes break it down, i.e., ruminants like horses or cattles, or those
with hindgut sacs like horses, rhinos, or colobine monkeys. Humans do not
have these specializations, yet they can still eat plant material.
- "In archaeological sites, broken human molars are most often confused
with broken premolars and molars of pigs, a classic omnivore. On the other
hand, some herbivores have well-developed incisors that are often mistaken
for those of human teeth when found in archaeological excavations."
- "Intestinal absorption is a surface area, not linear problem. Dogs (who
are carnivores) have intestinal specializations more characteristic of
omnivores than carnivores such as cats. The relative number of crypts and
cell types is a better indication of diet than simple length. [Humans] are
intermediate between the two groups."
It is not so simple to draw hard-and-fast conclusions about a species' diet
based on oversimplified abstractions about its rough digestive anatomy.
>Chimps mature in seven years and thus should live between 42 and 56 years.
"Should" according to whom? If you choose to answer, please give a
literature reference I can track down to verify. I don't know that much yet
about chimp longevity but I would like to learn more.
>Meat-eating chimpanzees never make it past the age of 35.
Goodall [1986], in a discussion of mortality rates among the chimps of
Gombe (one of the heavier meat-eating communities of chimps, I believe)
notes several chimps who were well past the age of 35 at the time of their
deaths. Although exact age is not always possible to determine, condition
of teeth (how worn down they are) is one indication that can be used. On
page 104 of this reference, there is a picture of a chimp with the caption,
"Flo in 1968, 4 years before her death. She was certainly over 40 years old
at the time. Note her very worn teeth."
Because age sometimes must be estimated, Goodall has classified some of her
data on mortality into a chart, with the rough age categories for chimps
who have reached independence as "young adult" (15-20 years), "prime"
(21-26), "middle-aged" (27-33), and "old" (over 33). Although there is no
specific listing of ages at time of death in this chart, Goodall does
mention a few things in the narrative, stating about "really old" chimps
that males may have a tendency to outlive females: "During the entire study
period, I have seen only thre females (Flo, Sprout, and Wilhelmina) who
looked really old [Flo was earlier noted to have died at at least the age
of 44], compared to 6 ancient-seeming males (McGregor, Hugo, Mike, Goliath,
Cracula, and Hubert)." This sounds to me like we have at least 9 of the
Gombe chimps who lived past the age of 40, and if that is the case, there
must be a considerable number of others who lived past age 35.
>Thirdly, chimpanzees are strong enough to hunt without any natural
>predation weapons (sharp teeth, claws, venom, etc.). Humans would not be
>able to catch and kill anything without tools. Do you have it in your
>psychological and physiological make-up to hunt down an animal, take it
>down in the wild, barefoot, with no clothes or technology? Yet it is
>without shoes, clothes, and technology that humans lived for millions of
>years.
Humans have lived with technology (beginning with stone tools) for
processing animals for food (whether scavenging or hunting is a focus of
debate in the archaeological community right now when you go back to homo
erectus and beyond) at least 1.8 million years, perhaps 2.5 million.
[Blumenchine 1992; Megarry 1995] Tool use is an integral part of the
definition of humans that evolutionary biologists have used for a long time
(along with bipedalism, large brain size, extremely extended
infanthood-to-maturity due to the large brain size which takes many years
to develop, and other characteristics I do not currently remember).
>In essence, chimpanzees are intelligent enough to engage in social hunting
>behavior they were not instinctively designed for, just like humans.
Is this simply your personal opinion, or can you supply us with a reference
to substantiate the statement? If you can supply a reference, I will
attempt to track it down when I have spare time, and if it is from
reputable scientific literature, I will report back to this listgroup
whether it agrees or disagrees with your statement.
>Humans have taken it one step further, however, by cooking. Fortunately,
>chimpanzees have enough sense not to cook flesh before eating it."
I would like to hear your scientific criteria for "having enough sense not
to cook flesh." Widespread cooking by humans has been around for
approximately 125,000 years [James 1989; Davidson and Noble 1993] and at
least 230,000 to 460,000 years since first use [Megarry 1995; Wu and Lin
1983; Patel 1995]--more than likely enough time for genetic adaptation to
have taken place to for the foods that were cooked. The Cavalli-Sforza
research team who has helped pioneer the field of population team states
based on their survey, "The History and Geography of Human Genes," that
50,000-100,000 years is probably representative of the time span over which
most current human polymorphisms (variants) of human genes have evolved
[Cavalli-Sforza 1994].
--Ward Nicholson <[log in to unmask]> Wichita, KS
LITERATURE CITED:
Blumenschine, Robert (1992) "Hominid carnivory and foraging strategies, and
the socio-economic function of early archaeological sites" In: Whiten A.
and Widdowson E.M. (eds)., Foraging Strategies and Natural Diet of Monkeys,
Apes, and Humans. Oxford, England: Clarendon Press, pp. 51-61.
Cavalli-Sforza, et al (1994) The History and Geography of Human Genes.
Princeton, NJ: Princeton Univ. Press.
Davidson and Noble (1993) "When did language begin?" In: Burenhult, Goran
(ed) The First Humans: Human Origins and Hisory to 10,000 B.C. New York:
Harper-Collins Pubs, p. 46.
Foley, Robert (1995) Humans Before Humanity. Cambridge, Mass: Blackwell Pubs.
Goodall, Jane (1986) The Chimpanzees of Gombe: Patters of Behavior.
Cambridge, Mass: The Belknap Press of Harvard Univ. Press.
Groves (1993) "Our earliest ancestors." In: Burenhult, Goran (ed), The
First Humans (see above).
James, Steven (1989) "Hominid use of fire in the lower and middle
Pleistocene. A review of the evidence." Current Anthropology, vol. 30, pp.
1-26.
McArdle, John (1996), "Humans are omnivores" In: Vegetarian Resource Group
(ed.) (1996) The Vegan Handbook, Vegetarian Resource Group, P.O. Box 1463,
Baltimore, MD 21203.
McGrew W.C. (1992) Chimpanzee Material Culture: Implications for Human
Evolution. Cambridge, Eng.: Cambridge Univ. Press.
Megarry, Tim (1995) Society in Prehistory: The Origins of Human Culture.
New York: N.Y. Univ. Press.
Sears, Cathy (1990) "The chimpanzee's medicine chest." New Scientist, vol.
127 (Aug. 4, 1990), pp. 42-44.
Sillen, A. (1992) Strontium-calcium (Sr/Ca) ratios of Australopithecus
robustus and associated fauna from Swartkrans." Journal of Human Evolution,
vol. 23, pp. 495-516.
Tutin, et al (1992) "Foraging profiles of sympatric lowland gorillas and
chimpanzees in the Lope Reserve, Gabon. In Whiten and Widdowson (see
above), pp. 19-26.
Walker, Alan and Shipman, Pat (1996), The Wisdom of the Bones: In Search of
Human Origins. New York: Alfred A. Knopf.
Wrangham et al (1992) "The significance of fibrous foods for Kibale Forest
chimpanzees." In Whiten and Widdowson (see above).
Wu Rukang and Lin Shenglong (1983) "Peking man." Scientific Ameican, June
1983, vol. 248, no. 6, pp. 86-94.
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