>>> - <[log in to unmask]> 12/03/96 11:15am >>>
>(snip)...  Enlightement without sex is possible  but a lot more difficult to
>obtain. A spirituality based on the denial  of our physical/emotional
>needs can IMO not lead to enlightenment.  Having said that true
>spirituality probably has very little to do with  the presence or
>abscence of either.

My understanding of this is that it's not really a question of self-denial,
but rather that sexual energies can be rechanneled for other uses, most
notably for the pursuit of enlightenment or mind-mastery or whatever
ones goal is.  This is the more Yogic interpretation of the matter.  I really
don't know what the philosophy behind Western monk/priest/nun
celibacy-for-religious-reasons is.

>(snip)... more of the likes  of trophy hunters who kill for the sheer fun of
>it to boost their frail  male egos.  Besides, not all animals are dying from
>overpopulation (to  say the least), ...(snip).

True, except for a few cases, like feral goats on an island with no
natural predators, most are dying from destruction of habitat.  Still, it does
happen.  Starvation is one of nature's ways of maintaining balance.  The
hunters may have a point in these cases.  What I don't get is the spirit
behind wanting to hunt.  I can understand killing because you need to for
survival, but I can't understand liking it.  Maybe it's a girl thang.

>(snip)...  if I indicated that optimum health is a prerequsite for spiritual
>growth, shame on me. :-(  What I probably was trying to say was that
>to  the extent there is a (perceived)connection between the two, the
>more a  diet is in conflict with our biological nature the less conducive it
>will be for our spiritual growth & enlightenment.

I do think I understand your points.  But it comes down to two things,
IMHO.  1)  Let's say that meat is not a need, per se.  It depends on what
you expect to feel like.  (I'm hypothesizing here - I haven't eaten meat in
years and don't feel any different because of it [well, just many years
older :-(])  Maybe the presence of it in your system makes you more
alert, logical, aggressive, articulate.  And maybe its absence makes you
more worshipful, dreamy, contemplative.     2)  Just how do you define
spirituality.  The Martha Seagoe definition still values compassion, despite
all this discussion.  I believe that we are not only mechanistic, physical
beings.  We have emotions, ideals, aspirations;  qualities that are treated
with some contempt by this group.

>>And lest you think I'm a totally hopeless Calvinist, "The Gift" really
>>cracked me up!

>Yeah, me too!

Me three.

Cheers,
Martha