Since Ric has left the list, the floor is open again to
anyone who wants to express their views on the issue of NFL & diet
zealotry. I expect that most of you are pretty tired of the subject - I
certainly am - but this issue is non the less about the life & soul of
Raw-food, especially since Ric was the last active vegan we had on
board. This message has also been forwarded to Ric.

Ric said;
>Just a short note to thank you for your patience, and for helping take
>this initiative...

Peter said:
Ric, you are welcome. Like when suspending NFL I am just trying to do
my job.

Peter said:
>>This will be the last post in this thread...

Ric said;
>that has long been overdue.  I am sorry it went on so long, but guess
>I have a weakness for stepping in whenever I think someone's getting
>picked on unfairly.  I'm just a sucker for the underdog.

With their arrogant behavior and elitist attitude they are more like
"overdogs" than underdogs. But do not let such details cloud your
judgment. ;-)

>In any event, this thing had run its course with my own patience, too.
>Just don't have the time to deal with such ongoing activity,
>especially when it's primarily in the negative theme with which this
>"thread" seemed to exist.  Doubt there was too much listening very
>closely to what the others were saying in the final debates. At least
>I didn't get the impression anyone at all got what I was trying to get
>across about there being room for all sorts of diversity of thought,
>strokes and approaches in this hopefully mutual effort to improve
>humankind's dietary beliefs and habits.

Diversity of thought cannot thrive in an environment of fear &
intimidation, and I do not see how humankind will benefit from NFLs
dietary misinformation and message of intolerance & zealotry.

>Since the list you had before was called "veg-raw," when I first came
>aboard, but changed with the assumption of the new RAW instincto
>majority,

There is no instincto majority on the list.

>during my traveling absence last year; and, in that my own feelings
>are admittedly pretty strong on the viability and ethical issues of
>the non-AF(animal foods) approach to dietary practices on this planet;
>I was obviously quite rapidly becoming a sort of festering anachronism
>and completely out of place here.

Not because of your opinions but because you refused so categorically
to look at and comment on the facts. (the NFL book + archives)

>Amidst all the charges of zealotry and fanaticism leveled at the NFL
>crew, I sensed a very strong current of the very identical zealotry
>and equal fanaticism coming from those making the charges against the
>NFL team being targeted!

You are barking up the wrong tree. If you would have taken the
opportunity to check the evidence you would have realized the fallacy
of your judgment.

>That's been my biggest disappointment with the list.

You, not the list, have been the big disappointment here. Since NFL and
their vegan supporters left, the list blossomed beyond all
expectations.

>I sincerely wish you all the very best and only hope that time will
>mellow the strong feelings of adversity towards the three young
>fellows who put out NFL. I may well be wrong, but seriously doubt it,
>however time will tell, won't it?

Do not hold your breath. I do not want to be mellow when it comes to
zealotry, and if it should ever happen, I expect my friends will do the
right thing and hit me on the head with a two-by -four until I come to
my senses. :-)  Accepting zealotry & bigotry is an insult to its
victims.

>I'm not arguing here that they (NFL) are without error, nor that you
>are...or, for that matter that I am, either; I'm simply saying that
>the level of maturity and tolerance I'd like to see on a list is so
>far a bit more attractive on the list that JR's set up, which is more
>my non-violent vegan venue, anyway.

Since when is denial a sign of maturity? Not wanting to put up with
verbal abuse and demanding an apology is not violent behavior. Anyway,
non-violent vegan venue is such a contradiction in terms but to show
what a peaceful guy I am I will, at least for now, not pursue this
issue any further.;-)

>You should know that I received some messages from several lurkers on
>the list giving sympathy to my position, but, again, that position was
>never against you or my opponents or those of NFL...

I invite these lurkers to step out into the open and speak their mind.

>it was more against the lack of tolerance I encountered and the strong
>expressions of anger, if not even unmitigated hate

Come on Ric, nobody hates these guys. I have met two of them, liked
them very much and posted a favorable review of their L.A. lecture to
the list. What I do feel very strongly about is their message of
bigotry & intolerance. And even if I did hate them there is a huge
difference between hating bigots and being one yourself. Do not tell me
you cannot tell the difference.

>I saw directed at three guys no longer even on the list to defend
>themselves.

I am sorry, my heart is not bleeding for them. Are you seriously
suggesting that I let them back on the list so they can continue their
verbal abuse and offend everybody who dares challenge their views? I do
not think so. They have been given countless chances by this list to
mend their ways but have chosen to ignore them. Until that changes my
hands are tied.


>I repeat...the very same earmarks of fanaticism and zealotry of which
>the NFLers were accused of exemplifying.  Martin Luther King and
>Ghandi demonstrated how powerful it can be to refuse to get angry, but
>to rather approach the enemy with love and understanding.

I suspect even Gandhi and King would have agreed that getting angry can
sometimes be a very legitimate & constructive action that empowers &
liberates and that withholding & suppressing it will often lead to
fanatism & zealotry.

>This way they never endangered their own credibility by hypocritically
>engaging in the "eye for and eye" sort of mentality....

What are you talking about? I & many others were sick to our stomachs
from the ad hominem attacks that kept coming from these guys. As a
moderator I had no choice but to suspend them, and your endless empathy
& tolerance for these characters does not cease to stun & baffle me.

>and, more importantly, they got far more
>converts than they ever would have by attacking, victimizing and
>denegrating their adversaries.

Attacking, victimizing and denigrating adversaries are the tactics of
NFL. I am sorry but pointing this out and putting a stop to it is not
the same as engaging in this type of behavior. If you cannot tell the
difference between the two, it seems that you are having a problem with
interpreting reality.

>I think you'll agree that history has proven this to be true.

Which is why all NFL ever will accomplish is to spread conflict.

>If we rawists can't learn to get along with our own divergency of
>opinion; can't learn to treat one another with respect, then we're not
>going anywhere worth going, at least in my book.
>That's my opinion.

But at what price Ric? If the price is accepting bigotry that spreads
conflict and violence and dietary misinformation that ruins peoples
health, what have we accomplished?

>If the NFL team has been guilty of this sort of hatred and anger,

Why not find out instead of speculating?

>then this disappointment of mine is just as much for their consumption
>as for yours and those of my final few adversaries on your raw animal
>foods (instincto)list.

So, in your world saying no to bigotry is just as bad as being a bigot?
Where on Earth do you get your values?

>Incidentally, have had some very rewarding fallout from all of this
>smoke and fire: A few of my early protagonists on your list have
>become great direct contact pen pals now, and for that I am very
>grateful to you and David. These former opponents have chastised me,
>and I them, but we moved ahead in a pretty swift balance of peace and
>mutual respect.  It's great.
>Thanks!

I am sorry Ric but when thinking of you peace & mutual respect are the
last things to come to mind. I have not in a long time met someone
quite as slippery as you. I do not think that you intended any harm but
your good intentions could easily have paved a two-lane road to Hell.
However, I am glad you got something out of being on this list. ( see I
can be slippery too ;-))

>I trust that will be the case with us, as well.

Ric, that will never  happen. I have no interest in any further
communication with you - for that you have just been too dishonest.

>If you're the same Peter Brandt I knew when I lived in Malibu...who
>was from Germany and sold the dehydrated crackers and lived for a
>while in the hangar at Clover Field, then hi....and goodbye, for now.

No , that was not me.

>Love and best wishes to David, too, who I have known for many years
>from (my Malibu days).

Man you play your part well. You refuse to look at anything I have got
to say, you duck every question, evade every issue and now you are
wishing me love. You indeed are like a professional salesman to the
very end. But what the heck - the best to you too. ;-)

Best, Peter
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