B Wong wrote in article <[log in to unmask]>...
> In article <01> "See-Toh Wai Keong" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >We all know that mammals are capable of feeling pain.
> >I really do not know much about the "suffering of plants"
> >that you talk about, do you?
> >If you do not know whether plants suffer, does it mean that
> >you should go ahead and slaughter a mammal?
> >How did you develop this logic?
> I think I will leave you to read Kunnika's post on this point.
> I think I agree with him on it.
Did Kunika post about slaughtering mammals if we don't
know whether plants can suffer?
> >> Is it because the animal suffers in a way we human can
> >> associate with more? Why should we have less
> >> compassion toward plants?
> >What do you understand by the precept of "not killing"?
> >Does it refer to animals or plants?
> I understand it to refer to all living creatures. Please educate
> me on this point if your understanding is different. I would
> truly appreciate it.
Buddhist monks would not be considered to have violated
the first precept if they pluck an apple (or the root, stem or
leaves of a plant) and eat it. But it would clearly be a violation
of the first precept in plucking out the heart out of a living
chimp or any other mammal. Why? 'cause it killed the
mammal. Hence my understanding is that the first precept
refers to the killing of animals.
> >Another strawman. Nobody in this thread said that eating
> >meat is near the extreme end of the "bad spectrum".
> I apologize if I mis-read it, but from the wording and tone
> of some of the posts, I do get the impression that some
> consider it to be a really bad thing.
> >> >> 2. Is it not some working of their respective karmas that
> >> >> these animals, plants and micro-organisms ended up
> >> >> being eaten by us?
> >> >I suppose torturers can use this argument and claim
> >> >that those they torture suffer because it is some
> >> >working of their respective karmas. If you run over
> >> >someone in your car, intentionally or otherwise,
> >> >do you use the argument that it is the working of
> >> >his/her karma?
> >> <snip> Let's say in past lives, I was murdered by someone,
> >> who by some karmic forces has in this life turned into a
> >> lobster sitting in the tank in front of me and I have the
> >> option to buy it and make it into sashimi for dinner.<snip>
> >As Robin Faichney said, you can use karma to justify just
> >about anything, including rape and murder.
> Everything is bound by karma. I have stated that ultimately
> whether a karmic action is effected depends also on one's
> decision at the moment, and one does have to bear the karmic
> consequences of that decision. So it really is not a justification
> in the sense you and Robin mean. Maybe you have a strawman
> here?
Since you claimed that everything is bound by karma,
then what are the karmic consequences of eating meat?
> >> Again, vegetarianism is a good thing; but please try not to
> >> put a yoke on those who cannot bear it.
> >Another grassperson. Nobody is putting a yoke on anybody
> >in this thread.
> Again, I apologize for mis-reading it, but I do get the impression
> that some posters think that meat-eating is such a terrible thing
> that we all ought to become vegetarians.
> >> >> Other posters have probably discussed this point rather
> >> >> thoroughly already, but I still find "eating" meat quite
> >> >> distinctly different from "killing" the animal. Buddhist
> >> >> rules proscribe killing only.
> >> >Agreed. You don't do it, but pay someone to do it.
> >> >You have a great argument there, not to mention
> >> >a clean shirt. Congrats.
> >> Your sarcasm aside, equating eating and killing is not
> >> really a Buddhist position.
> >Yet another strawman. Nobody is equating eating and
> >killing in this thread. Your army of strawmen is getting
> >larger.
> If you are really not equating killing with meat-eating,
> what's that about "a clean shirt" and "paying others to do it?"
When you buy meat, do you slaughter the animal yourself?
If you don't then you would have kept your shirt clean.
Also, your money would go towards paying the butcher
to kill the animal, wouldn't it?
What is it that you don't understand?
> >> >> Whatever we eat, if that should become the source of
> >> >> attachment, it works against enlightenment. We should
> >> >> recognize and appreciate (very much and from depth of
> >> >> our hearts) the function of our food and its sources, be it
> >> >> plant-life or animal-life.
> >> >> However, we should not get attached to them.
> >> >If you are not attached to eating meat, then why eat meat?
> >> May I ask you in return: If you are not attached to eating
> >> vegetables, then why eat them?
> >Another strawman. I did not claim that I'm not attached to eating veg.:-)
> My apologies. Due to the NG I'm posting to, I thought you
> were a Buddhist. Then again, you could be a Buddhist who
> is also trying very hard to "kick the habit" of attachment.
> Again, I probably mis-spoke.
Non-Buddhists can be compassionate too.
[Since you brought up the subject of whether I'm Buddhist.]
Non-Buddhists can also understand that meat comes from
dead animals, and most (if not all), are killed specifically
for human consumption. Some, like chickens, lived all
their lives in tiny cages that are scarcely bigger that their
own bodies. Would a compassionate being subject another
to such treatment, if an alternative diet is available?
What would a compassionate being do, if he/she knows
that the money spent is used to finance an industry
that fosters untold misery on millions of mammals
and birds every year?
What would a Buddhist do?
[Some Buddhists suggested that I practise more compassion
on plants and bacteria, but I don't see how that would help the
millions of mammals bred for the slaughterhouse.]
> >> To me, both vegetables and meat are simply food, which is
> >> there to keep me alive. I eat whatever that is available.
> >If vegetables and meat are equally available, then what would
> >you eat?
> >
>
> I eat both - I have a big appetite! (:P
In that case, do you think the money you spent on meat
would be used towards paying the butchers to do the
killing, or towards maintaining tiny cages to imprison
the chickens?
> >> I may even enjoy the moment of eating them, but I realize
> >> (or think I realize) that it is sunyata and impermanent, and
> >> I +try+ not to get attached to whatever it is I am eating. I
> >> would be a hypocrite if I said I am successful all the time,
> >> but I am working on it.
> >I suppose it could be difficult if the beef steak is still drippingblood.
> Actually, when I used to eat steak (I don't eat beef much, by the way), I
> did like it rare and red. But what's the difference whether it isdripping
> blood or not? It is just a piece of meat. The animal probably died the
> same way regardless of how you cooked it afterward. Unlike some people,I
> do not need any reminder of the "atrocity" the cow went through to have
> compassion for that animal.
It is said that he who pays the piper calls the tune.
If you pay for the flesh of dead animals, are you not asking for
more dead animals? Where do you think the dead animals
come from? Are you not encouraging the killing of animals?
> >> Interestingly enough, yes. I actually do feel (maybe only
> >> sometimes - I know I need more practice!) the compassion
> >> toward the slaughtered animal; yet I also feel (again,
> >> sometimes) the same way toward the killed
> >> vegetables.
> >Really? What do you pray for the vegetables?
> >That they get reborn in a higher realm?
> That's not high enough. Try attaining enlightenment just
> like all of us eventually will?
"Abstain from lying" is one of the five precepts.
Do you really pray that the apple you eat
becomes enlightened? Can you post the prayer
you used?
> >> >Is your prayer all that important for the cow?
> >> Yes, if you believe in the cycle of re-incarnation, if you
> >> believe in karma, if you believe in Buddhism. In almost
> >> every Buddhist tradition, there are practices, mantras and
> >> prayers one should perform before eating and
> >> drinking (even water).
> >What will your prayer do for the cow?
> >What will a Buddhist prayer do for a dead cow,
> >vis-a-vis a Hindu or Sikh prayer?
> >Will any prayer do?
> >What exactly did you pray for the dead cow?
> Again, if you do not believe in Karma, Buddhism, etc.,
> nothing will do anything for the cow - it's dead.
That's interesting. Are you saying that you simply BELIEVE
that your prayer will do something, but do not actually KNOW
what it will do for the cow?
What is it that you BELIEVE your prayer will do for the cow?
> >> >> Also, if we feel the compassion toward the killed food
> >> >> source, we should use it to our advantage - it's an opportunity
> >> >> to expose and get closer to the bodhicitta in ourselves.
> >> >When you eat the steak, you are already using the cow
> >> >to your advantage. And you want additional advantages?
> >> >Do we simply take advantage of others whenever we can?
> >> <Some definitions snipped> A Bodhisattva is, after all, one
> >> with prajna and compassion.
> >I have no arguments with definitions. What I wanted to
> >know was, since you've already taken advantage of the
> >cow by eating its flesh, what other advantages would
> > you take out of its death?
> The opportunity to observe, feel, and register the compassion
> in me. I do not intentionally cause the death of the cow to
> get the opportunity, but since it was killed already, I will take
> advantage of the opportunity. <snip>
Do you deny all responsibility for the death of the cow?
Didn't you pay for its flesh? Wasn't the money used to
pay the butchers?
> >> You are very fortunate to have developed compassion for
> >> animals that you have become a vegetarian, how about
> >> working on it some more to extend it toward the plants
> >> and the micro-organisms (which you just took in by the
> >> billions in your last breath).
> >Thank you for telling me what I should do. We seem
> >to have 20/20 vision with respect to what others should
> >do, don't we? It even beats hindsight.
> >Have you heard of the one about the splinter in your brother's eye?
> I am aware of the pillar in my eyes and am working on
> removing it - thanks for reminding me that. Like I have
> said repeatedly, different vehicles for different individuals:
> vegetarianism suits you and many others just fine,
> eating meat is not a bad thing either. Agreed?
Who pays the butchers to kill mammals & birds?
seetoh
If you exchange $ for flesh, more animals will be killed.
However, your shirt remains clean.
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