>>Didn't the List cover the usual mucous generating problems with the raw
>>dairy?  Been absent as a regular reader of the list for some time (3+
>>months), so maybe it was discussed.

>Tom:
>The point I was trying to make was that raw milk, consumed warm, spiced,
>after meals, with consideration given to the content of the meal, is *not*
>mucus forming. (Ayurveda considers goat milk to reduce mucus!).  Milk
>that is pasteurized, drunk cold, with meals, irregardless of meal content,
>will generally produce mucus.

>I find that raw milk, consumed correctly, produces almost no mucus - less
>mucus than unsoaked nuts or avocados.

Interesting...guess it shows how different our individual metabolisms
really are.  Even the warm (right from the goats and cows) milk gave us
enough mucous to be uncomfortable...although nothing as serious as if it
were taken cold.  On that our experience was the same.

>The way you consume something can of course make a big difference; compare
>1 kg of wheat berries, soaked and sprouted, versus 1 kg wheat ground into
>flour, mixed with 1 kg sugar and baked into cookies. Big difference in how
>the body reacts to wheat sprouts vs. cookies.

Amen.

>Ric:
>>That was the next to last raw animal product our family quit (honey the
>>last), and when the dairy vacated our abode, so did mucous problems, colds,
>>etc.  Dairy (both cow and goat) milks don't closely proximate human milk,
>>so we weren't surprised at the improvements in our well being once we cut
>>the delicious liquid (and cheeses) out.

>Tom:
>And you were drinking milk refrigerator cold, with meals, unspiced, etc?

Nope, always fresh and still warm from our producers...and always alone,
not with other foods.  Right about the unspiced, though.

We didn't spice the milk at all, being a tad strict about the use of any
stimulants such as spices.  About the only exception was during the
Chrismas holidays...we later took to making ersatz non-egg nog, but from
almond milk, rather than dairy.  This very infrequent use of the cinamon,
nutmeg, ginger, etc, wasn't even encountered every year.  The spicing of
the almond milk always gave me some intestinal notice (but nothing too
severe), whereas the plain un-charged up almond milk went quietly thru the
chute.

The ayurvedic trip is too esoteric for this simpleton midwesterner.  It's
also not too close to Hygienic thinking, which is closer to where our
thoughts...and bods... were most comfortable.

>Ric:
>>I'd heard many well thought out arguments against dairy products for quite
>>a few years before I was able to overcome my own addiction to the food, but
>>have never been sorry...and my kids grew up with excellent teeth and
>>bones...and were still taller than their parents (my ex-wife and I), sans
>>dairy.

>Tom:
>I have heard a number of the standard vegan arguments against dairy,
>but I have also heard some pro-dairy arguments as well. In fact, an analysis
>of the vegan view of dairy reveals a great deal about veganism. I have a
file  in my archives that addresses this topic, and will eventually retrieve it,
>update and enlarge it, and post it.  It will be some weeks before I get
around  to posting that. The material there is best presented as a whole, rather
than piecemeal. That file discusses how and why ethical veganism is an
inconsistent  and incomplete philosophy, and the vegan view of dairy and honey.

There are numerous non-vegan based arguments against dairy, too. Are you
familiar with John Robbins' work and that of the Drs. (MDs) Klaper,
McDougal, Cousens, et al, regarding the dairy issue?


Again, the first strong arguments against dairy I encountered were not from
Vegans...and two not even from vegetarians.  I was personally very familiar
with the dairy business, both cows and goats, and we also raised our own
honey for a while, too.  These emotional attachments served to conveniently
blind me for quite some time to a lot of cogent material presented against
the benefit of dairy...and even some against honey, too.  My emotional,
financial, and time investment in dairy was especially mind numbing in
respect to being open to any arguments against its efficacy.  Kept me from
quitting the tasty stuff for quite a few years...but, as I mentioned above,
we were all glad we took the plunge, or should I say, jumped on what later
turned into the vegan wagon.

>Regarding possible cruelty; it is clear that dairy farming as big business is
>indeed cruel. However, it is possible to produce milk in a much more humane
>manner, and a few small producers are trying. I'm not saying they are saints,
>but they are moving in the right direction. A local goat dairy uses no drugs,
>no hormones, their animals have space to run and are given names, and the
>animals actually come to the milking location when it is time to be milked.
>Their milk is raw, of course.

Gotcha, Tom.  That last description matched our scenario, when we kept our
own goats, but we still had one heck of a problem with the "uneeded" young
bucks that always appeared among the new crops of baby goats.  Even with
the benign animal husbandry we exercised, where the loveable critters were
part of our family (every bit as much as our horses, pig, dog, etc.), there
was no way to rationalize away the fact that we were quite an imposition on
the natural inclinations of the goats.

And dairy work is extremely labor intensive, too.  Far easier to obtain the
same nutrients from other sources than from dairy products.  Even the
goats, of course, don't continue to nurse their young, once they get a bit
older and larger.  Only we humans seem to continue the practice of stealing
the milk from other mammals; and after we're grown into adults, for that
matter.

After many, many years of experience with both ends of the dairy business,
I finally had to let my mind entertain some of the anti-diary rhetoric.  It
helped me break the addiction, but it was never all that easy to quit.

Hey, I always loved the taste and texture of the stuff.  I was a real
milk/cheese gourmand from a young age.  This naturally helped keep me busy
rationalizing why I should ignore the logic of the plethora of arguments I
began to encounter against dairy consumption...arguments, I repeat,  that
were primarily focused on strickly health issues, not philosophical ones.

But, Tom, if you enjoy the milk...which I did...I understand.  It's easy
for me to remember how I felt.  I quit.  You may never quit...and certainly
shouldn't...unless you find good reason to do so.  I imagine you'd at least
make a lot of cows and goats, especially the males, much happier!  :)

So, that's it for me.

Cheers,

Ric