....excuse the snips...Ward is >> and Peter is >

>>on the list itself, and maybe this invitation here is not even
>>appropriate.)

>If not here, where? - Especially when considering the non-profit &
>non-commercial nature of the NH M2M.

Yes, if not here, where!? Maybe M2M is where it's truly happening these
days...

>>Anyway, to get into much more depth here about my own views about a
>>total raw-food diet I feel would only create acrimony and hard
>>feelings here on Veg-Raw, which seems to be a moral support group for
>>raw-food enthusiasts just as much as it is a discussion group.

>>I wouldn't want to spoil that, and generally am not one to voice my
>>opinions more than once in a forum where I anticipate they would not
>>be welcome. (Very briefly, experience of people in the Natural Hygiene
>>M2M seems to show that only about 10% or 15% of people who attempt a
>>total raw-foods diet actually are able to thrive on it.

A moral support group that denies reality and experience isn't very
valuable. The question of whether people really thrive on raw diets, the
views of newbies and experienced folk on the matter, honest evaluations of
experience--aren't these things the _core_ of any "support" group.

Further, I feel that anyone starting on the raw adventure would be
well-served by some honesty from old-timers about the long term trials and
tribulations. Nothing is worse to me than a bunch of propaganda about the
glorious la la land that awaits anyone willing to eat a raw carrot, or a
raw fish, for that matter.

>>The rest's health seems to do better with the inclusion of at least
>>some cooked foods such as potatoes, grains.

>Instead, they might do even better with some raw diary, raw eggs or raw
>fish for a while.(says I, an impassioned vegan who has not touched
>these foods for 24 years, except for a few short periods in between
>with a little dairy - Weston Price did not lived in vain :-))

I, too, feel that when long-term frustration sets in on a raw-veg diet that
it may be time to explore raw animal foods of the highest quality
available. What to do when long-term frustration sets in on an instincto
diet? Now that's one for the query book, and probably has less to do with
nutrition than emotion.

Still, it is reported that well over 95% of those seeking to maintain an
instincto diet are unable/unwilling to do so in the long run. Worse numbers
than raw-veg diets.

>>That's all I'll say here--if you are interested in discussing any of
>>this further, please address your replies to me in private email so we
>>don't burden the list with unwanted discussion.)

>No burden - great post!  And to everybody, if you are thinking of
>responding to any of Ward's comments please, rather than private email,
>feel free to share with the list. I am sure we all want to hear
>whatever thoughts you might have on the subject.

I was going to leave Wards post be (at his request) but since Peter broke
the ice... It _is_ a great post, Ward, and no burden: how could a carefully
composed response on the effiacy (sp?) of long-term raw diets be a burden
to a mailing list about raw foods?

I haven't been around veg-raw very long and don't know the history, but I
don't think veg-raw is so very fragile that is will break apart from a
discussion of the limitations of a raw diet.

I was very glad to see that no one bashed Ward's post with the usual
propaganda about how rawliness is next to godliness and how "heretical"
Ward must be to forward the possibility that a baked potato may be
appropriate for many people.

New topic: It may be that there are so few posts to veg-raw because many
feel they are not "pure" or raw enough to contribute (the idea that "oh, I
still drink coffee, or snarf a donut, or eat my chocolate, etc. and
therefore would be evil in the eyes of true blue rawists who will then lay
into me with both barrels.") If newbies only knew that long-term rawists
are racked by similar confusions and frustrations, perhaps there would be a
freer exchange.

Who knows? But I have yet to meet a practicing frutarian, whereas I have
met several ex-frutarians--it just wasn't working for them. Even the gulf
btwn instincto theory and practice (eating your fill vs pigging out, for
one) is less talked about than instincto "lore". There are people who have
stuck to various raw regimens in the longterm (though no one but their
hairdresser knows, for sure) and this seems to show the tremedous variety
in human experience. This variety might be celebrated instead of
compartamentalized.

"We're all dogfaces. Here's proof: his nose is wet." -Bill Murray in Stripes

Cheers,
Kirt