>	it does seem to me that the zeal with which the instinctos are
>preaching RAF (sounding at a higher decibel level to me than even the 3
>Dudes) might be born of a guilty conscience.  It's sort of like, "We
>gotta convince all these vegans it's OK so we won't have to feel guilty
>about what we're doing ourselves."

>Of course, it might just simply be an honest attempt to say, "Hey, look
>what we found!  Life is great with this, not so great without it!"  Since
>I can't read your minds, I don't know which it is, but I can't help being
>suspicious.

Bob, I've done everything humanly possible to not _preach_ while still
sharing information which may be of real import to those aspiring to an
all-raw diet. If you really can't tell which of your options (above) is
more accurate, there isn't much I could ever say to convince you
otherwise...

If further, you can't tell the difference btwn my posts and NFL's, there,
again, isn't much I can say that would convince you. Luckily, I don't
consider you (or your attempts to create controversy, both on and off this
list) to be much of an "audience" anyway. When I am expanding on a thread
in veg-raw I aspire to say what I wish I would've known when I was
beginning on the raw journey, and there's a healthy dose of just shooting
the breeze in there too, I hope :/

Many of the posts to veg-raw concern the trouble people have in aspiring to
an all-raw vegan diet. There seem to be a number of people that suspect
there may be something amiss in such a regime. Peter is one of the few who
is public about it, and the struggle he is having in approaching RAF after
identifying with veganism for so long and so deeply. I know there are
others. Some have posted publicly; some have privately emailed me.

I started posting on veg-raw in an effort to see what criticisms there
might be to instincto and RAF, but soon found it a very human place (which
surprised me given the medium of email) and was diving in with both feet.
The content of the response has been of four general varieties as I see it:

1] Reasoned and provocative critique across a wide range of issues,
including emotional issues. Peter's early dialogue, and continuing posts,
are examples of same. His posts are not the only ones in this "group" of
postings but clearly he has posted liberally and of high-quality IMO (given
my desire to be exposed to the "arguments against" instincto and RAF).
Peter, and others, have changed forever the way I will think about raw
foods and instincto. H&B and M2M are powerful forums for this level of
cutting-edge discussion as well.

2] Reactions of bafflement and/or curiosity from philosophical vegans (many
who are aspiring to a 100% vegan and/or 100% raw diet). Often these posters
admit that they are having a hard time reaching their stated goals and
sometimes are confused as to why. I find such admissions to show great
integrity, and feel oblidged to offer the idea that it is RAF that may be
the missing element in their diet. Doing so without offending is a tricky
thing, and I probably have been clumsy about it. I have been trying, and
continue to try, to get a handle on raw foods for several years, have been
through the ditch with Melisa on the whole matter, and feel much empathy
for people who are struggling with raw foods. How am I supposed to help, if
my "message/discovery" is antithetical to what a vegan wants to hear? I
express _my_ bafflement of vegan philosophy, and the joy there is in RAF.
And then I say it all over with different words. The "real dialogue", I
sense, that is often between the lines on veg-raw is the one approached
time and time again by Peter: what happens to veganism and one identified
with it in light of new info on RAF (though much of this info is not really
"new")?

3] NFL. It is very sad to me (when my heart rate goes back to normal) that
anyone on a 100% diet (regardless of whether it be vegan, high fruit,
whatever) could be so NFLish. I want to blame it on "too much fruit" but
Rene, for one example, is all fruit and he is a sincere and very gentle
fellow (at least from his posts). My experience upon an all-raw (and
largely fruitarian for months at a time) was that I mellowed out. People
considered me more pleasant to be around, said I had changed, etc. I
attributed it mostly to raw foods, and made a mistake often repeated in the
"diet arena" and many other arenas as well: I thought my reaction was a
universal one, that if someone else undertook a raw foods diet they would
mellow out, etc. (and its a pretty big etc!). Veg-raw and M2M in general,
and NFL specifically, has taught me otherwise in a big way. Since I figure
there is a future for raw foods, NFL depresses me with their guerilla
tactics. What can I say? My bubble is burst regarding the efficacy of a raw
foods diet. I remember going round and round with Peter about the perfect
diet not being _everything_, and now I see that it may be next to nothing,
that it may matter very little for some people. Including RAF isn't going
to help the problems boiling in the NFL organism, but of course, they have
no problems =:O

4] Some very heartfelt private email from some lurkers and some posters,
telling me that their experience with RAF has lead them to believe it is
important. The two most often-asked questions are a] is there an instincto
mailing list or newsgroup?, and b] what would my suggestions be for a good
RAF for a "beginner". As for an instincto list, I used to think it would be
a bad idea (everybody slapping each other on the back for how great they
all are for being instincto, and the loss of "dissenting notions" which is
provided by vegans and the old-fashioned NHers) but the more this group
perseverates on RAF to no real avail (or at least none that I can detect),
I can see where there may be some merit in an (aspiring) instincto
newsgroup (though I doubt there is enough people to make it work or someone
willing to put in the time and energy involved in get it up and going). I
don't know, but maybe when this list becomes food-raw, the (aspiring) raw
vegans may want their own list :/ I'd venture that an instincto list would
not be immune from NFL-crashing (or, by the looks of it, Bob Avery trying
to stir up emotions in others that he can not apparently experience for
himself). I think veg-raw/food-raw, warts and all, will have to do (along
with H&B and M2M). As for b, I will try to post a FAQ-like how-to approach
RAF in the coming weeks, or perhaps in January--if I stick this out.

I, and a few others, consider instincto to be the nutrition part of NH, but
still not recognised as such. Instincto offers an approach to RAF in a way
which protects against overload. There are many other pros and cons of
instincto but IMO the "discovery" of RAF is primary, especially given the
vegan nature of most raw fooders. There is much more to instincto than RAF
of course, and much of it appears un-useful. But Bob struck a deeper chord
in me than any other poster. Whether or not he is just getting his jollies
by trying stir people up, the perception of me as a "preacher" or a
"higher-decibal zealot" than NFL is quite enough to make me consider that
there isn't really a way to express myself on the matter here without a
price. Whether the price is a result of my emotional baggage of that of
other veg-rawers or both seems not to matter to me right now.

In any case, I'm outta here. As mentioned, I will try to post some RAF
stuff down the line.

Have a pleasant holiday, and since I'm accused of preaching anyway, I may
as well do some: let the people you care about know it _directly_ (or as
James Taylor says, "shower the people you love with love") and extend
yourself this holiday season. Ombodhi seems to have found the gentle center
of veg-raw and I trust he will keep it as carefully as one eats a ripe
Haychia persimmon...

Toodaloo,
Kirt