Rene:
>Have you ever been fishing?

Kirt:
Yes.

>How would we feel when a crocodile here in North Queensland gets hold of us
>and drags us into the water for a certain drawning death? Wouldn't we scream?

Yes.

>Next when you kill a fish, animal, look it
>into the eyes and ask yourself whether you would like to be in the position
>of the fish, animal.

You may be missing something here, Rene. No matter how hard I try I am
_not_ in the position of the fish. I am me--and while I can pretend to be a
fish, and/or imagine being killed by a croc, I fail to see the logic in the
idea that since I don't want to be eaten by a croc, then I shouldn't eat a
fish. Why does the croc want to eat me? Because it is not a fruitarian?
Because it is not following the "Creator's plan"? Because it is less
evolved in some cosmic sense? How so?

>"Sentimental" thoughts or feelings??  Only to those
>who do not possess compassion and love for what is "living".
>As long as humanity kills, for whatever reason, there is lack of inner
>peace, of inner harmony, an out of balance situation.  It is not "love-ful"
>consciousness and then we ask why humanity has all the problems, physical as
>well as mental.

I consider that much of "humanity's problems" have to do with living in a
way which is in discord with our biology. You feel that we are also in
discordance but that the discord is between how we _are_ and how we
_should_be_ if we were only more highly evolved in some undefined spiritual
way (the definition you allude to: living in love with all animals and
eating only plants, especially fruits). Your ideas about love and
compassion are not limited to our mates, children, social group, and our
species, and/or our pets, but encompass all life (well...animal life,
anyway). You start with the idea that killing another animal is bad (and by
extension that most of nature is bad since many animals kill other
animals), and end with the idea that if we didn't kill animals then we
wouldn't be bad.

I start with the idea that we are what we are, and end up surprised that we
are not evil, but delightfully complex, rich, wonderful, etc.--not because
we aspire to such heights but because that is part and parcel of human
nature, or at least the human nature which I have experienced. And on the
not-so-delightful side: I tend to cover up a hole of unmet need deep down
there in my nervous system. That's the way my cookie has crumbled.  Of
course, this only leaves me to be me, instead of pretending I'm a fish as
the basis of my morality. It also leaves me as a "lowly un-evolved human
being" who might be redeemed somehow by accepting yet another of your
sermons regarding the Creator's Truth. Since there are no pulpits and pews
on food-raw, I am inspired to respond.

>That what is lacking on the "within" will show itself on the "without" in
>physical form in ill health and in thought, mental form, in hatred,
>resentment, spite, anger etc.   Then humanity claims that it cannot live on
>the most peaceful of all diets and blames the lack in the dietary nutrition,
>not giving us what we need,  instead of blaming their own lack within.
>Would the "Creator" not have given us the best and most peaceful of foods to
>eat, but instead would the "Creator" have given us inadequate foods so we
>may get ill and sick in the mind as well??

Personally, I don't know, Rene--I don't have the slightest idea what you
are talkng about above. Do you? Or does the above just sound really good to
you? Where does this inner lack come from? Why are humans, by nearly every
standard (excepting, of course, yours), omnivorous? Was the Creator playing
a practical joke on fruitarians? Is the inner lack a result of the Devil's
insidious onslaught? This "most peaceful of diets" that you have
discovered, is it written on stone tablets somewhere? Or is it an idea that
sounds cool, tastes sweet, and gives you a rightious stuggle to devote your
life's energies to? ;)

>In humanities imbalance, it is
>humanity itself that has created inadequate foods - by depleting the soils
>of the Earth - by the use of chemicals - etc. etc. - then put the blame on
>"something" or "someone" else.

Like on those who kill animals? On their lack of compassion? Who are _you_
putting the blame on, Rene? Really.

>It becomes a vicious circle that way.

The viscious circle I see is that you start where you end: that we are
imperfect and need to evolve in a higher way, but we have big trouble doing
that because we are imperfect, so we must evolve in a higher way, since
obviously we are imperfect, so we...Sure, it gives you a dialogue which
will grow old with you, which is comforting I'd imagine, but it is a
viscious circle nonetheless. I am reminded of a spider in the bathtub: it
climbs up every angle at the edges of the tub and, of course, slips back
down, only to redouble it's efforts--each time convincing itself that it
has gotten closer to the edge. Perhaps it is afraid of the drain (the inner
lack, or the unmet need, or the missing piece, etc etc), as would be
understandable. But in using all it's energy trying to escape, in being
unable to learn from its experience, it is wasting it's life: because the
tub is not an evil porcelien concoction of the chemical manufacturers, it
is our natural home, and we are free to fill the tub with all that we
prefer. Rubber duckies or orchards, soapsuds or beaches, sermons about
compassion or stories about spiders in tubs. But running away from one's
natural home (the body, the tub) to arrive at the spiritual realm (nirvana,
over the edge of the tub) may be futile. I suspect that even if you could
succeed, you would simply fall off the edge, but maybe that is your
preference...to each his own.

>The great masters and spiritual guides tell us also that all disharmony in
>the outer, of whatever nature, is but the reflection of the disharmony, lack
>of love from the heart.

And Nature may be trying to tell us that when we are improperly fed and
cared for, we grow up disharmonious. Love doesn't come from the heart--it
comes from our mother's lap and breast, and then from our freedom to grow
unhindered by spiritual guidebooks and cultures which are at odds with our
biology, and later from our desire to create more life. Like a Kurt
Vonnegut character, I could live without so much "love" and a little more
"common sense and respect".

>For the realisation of this I am still "working" on myself and I also do so
>for and in my work for the Fruitarian Network.

Of course, you're still working on it, Rene! It's unattainable, but it does
fill that hole inside with hope, doesn't it? And give you a new "family" to
be part of, no?

>Do you want to fish, kill
>animals so you may live in health, really, do you need it for true health?

That's exactly the message my body seems to be telling me. Too bad it is
not in accordance with your ideas on the matter. Perhaps you can have a
word with my cells and talk them out of this silly notion that a diet
restricted to fruit isn't really what they want. Cause, if you could I'd be
thrilled. Eating fruit would be a lot simpler than any other way I've ever
eaten. :)

>I wish you peace and inner harmony.

Thanks, but I have my own. And it stems from my bone marrow, not from "The
great masters and spiritual guides" whistling that you can't see the drain
from the edge of the tub.

Cheers,
Kirt