In article <[log in to unmask]> you write:
>>So are you saying the answer is "yes?"  Point-blank:  do raw food eaters
>>gain any benefit from brushing and flossing or is it unnecessary, assuming
>>one doesn't eat dried fruit or its ilk.

>I still haven't gotten an answer on this one.  There have been posts
>recommending the Water Pik and others, but humans in the natural state do
>not have water piks.  So I ask again: are brushing and flossing
>counter-productive things necessary for the average eater of cooked glop but
>not the raw veg/fruit eater?

>I'd really like to retire my toothbrush.

As would I.

I did originally answer your question, however my tone in at least one
paragraph could be taken as insulting or condescending, so our moderator
elected not to post it.  Unfortunately, my mail/news software is hopelessly
misconfigured, so I don't have any copies of my posts.  (If our moderator
wants to forward me another copy of the offending post, I might rewrite and
resumbit it)  In the meantime, I'll try and answer your question to the best
of my ability.

First and foremorst, the question that you ask is a very absolute and
unforgiving one - you are asking your peers on this list to provide you with
an absolute answer.  An answer I suspect none of us have.  I cannot tell you
whether or not you should brush your teeth, and I would regard with
suspicion anyone who would propose to advise me similarly.  What I can do is
provide you with my own experiences and information that I have encountered,
so that you can make up your own mind.  With that out of the way, here's my
thoughts on dental health.

As is often observed, animals and many primitive tribes (before contact with
civilization, and I don't think there are any such tribes left) do not
practise any form of oral hygiene, and yet they are completely or nearly
immune to the ravages of dental disease and decay that plague most modern
civilizations.  So if we want to learn how to prevent tooth decay, it would
seem logical to study those who do not have it, since all our efforts at
studying our rotten teeth have only produced flouride, flossing, and more
brushing.

This is the gist of the introduction to a book I believe I've mentioned
before on this list, but will mention again, because I feel it is such an
eye-opener.  The book is _Nutrition and Physical Degeneration_ by Weston A.
Price.  (You should be able to find it in your public or local university
library) Dr. Price (a dentist) travelled the globe studying primitive tribes
("savages" in the 1930's lexicon in which it was written) to discover why it
was that they invariably had the excellent dental health, including
resistance to carries *and* fine facial/oral bone formation (i.e. no
orthodontic problems)  These peoples were also extemely healthy overall,
i.e. had a high resistance to disease, strong and intelligent etc etc.

Time and time again, in his studies of each tribe, he found that they relied
upon the natural foods around them, including in all cases, some amount of
meat or other animal food. (i.e. milk, blood etc) Foods were often raw, but
not always.  One primitive community in Sweden subsisted almost entirely on
hard rye bread and milk for most of the year.  (I didn't even think that was
possible!) All of the groups studied were extemely active and had a strong
and stable social community.

In many tribes, the mouth was put through rituals such as having a tooth
knocked out, or filing teeth down into points.  None of these activities
caused long term pain or discomfort.

In every case, where a group was studied as it began to make regular contact
with civilization and "modern" foods, rampant tooth decay occured.  One
group was visited by ship only once every 6 months.  Active carries were
only observed in the weeks and months following the ships arrival.  After a
few months had passed (and all the "modern" food they had traded for was
gone) decay stopped.

The doctor's conclusions were twofold.  First, the IMHO entirely logical
conclusion that we need to eat closer to the earth.  (he specifically
recommends raw foods) Second he has a lot of ideas about substances in
animal foods that might play a role in preventing decay.  The book's vivid
portrayals of primitive people living in excellent health on animal-based
diets that I had been led to believe were inevitably disasterous for humans,
really opened my eyes about what constitutes a perfect or ideal diet for
humans.  That said however, the book was written in the 1930's, vitamins had
just barely been discovered, and I don't feel his micro-nutritional advice
is very relevant today.  I am a vegetarian and at least one of the groups he
studied was nearly so.  This book only showed me once again how flexible the
human animal is, and it did nothing to disuade me from a pure-vegetarian
diet.  It just made me a little less self-righteous.


So that's the source of most of my knowledge on dental health, but heres a
few more tidbits before *my* big conclusion.

I found this wonderful book in a very interesting and serendipitous way,
considering the topic of this list.  From postings on this list (or perhaps
vegan-L) I tracked down, bought, and enjoyed greatly, a copy of "Blantant
Raw Foodist Propaganda!" by Joe Alexander.  In it, he makes reference to a
study done on the effects of raw & cooked foods on cats.  This is the same
study noted in Fit For Life (Harvey & Marilyn Diamond).  I didn't know it
then, but the study was carried out by a Dr. Pottenger of the
Price-Pottenger foundation, an organization created by Dr. Weston Price's
widow to deseminate his nutritional findings.  Anyways, in Joe's book, he
actually printed the entire study in the back.  This is very interesting
reading.

I think I've summarized this study before, so I'll save you all from a
repeat.  Suffice to say that the less processed the diet, the healthier the
cat.  Raw food cats (raw meat & milk, cats are carnivores) reproduced
indefinately.  Processed food cats (cooked meat, sweet condensed milk) were
sterile after the second generation.  Further, healthy stands of weeds grew
in the stool of the raw food cats.  *None* grew in the stool of the cooked
food cats.  What is IMHO relevant here is that in terms of overall health
and nutrition, the teeth seem to me to be an early warning. i.e. it seemed
that the teeth were the first to go as these animals degenerated.  Put
another way, it is curious that on this given deficient diet, facial and
dental deformities happened first, before any other larger failure or
deformity.

Finally, some assorted tidbits of knowledge and cultural-myth bashing that
I've picked up.  (but again, mainly from Dr. Price's book)

Cultural myth:  Some people are born with strong enamel, some with weak.
Fact:  You aren't born with any enamel.  Enamel is formed by a chemical
reaction between the saliva and the dentene (the layer below the enamel, in
adult teeth)  While I'm sure different individuals have different saliva and
dentene, I think the variations we see in who gets cavities and who doesn't
have much much more to do with diet and how it influences what kind of
saliva and dentene you will have.

Cultrural myth:  Cavities are caused when you eat sugar, because the sugar
feeds bacteria in your mouth which decay your teeth.
Fact:  Sugar dissolves really well in saliva, so there's much less of it
around a few minutes after eating than there is of complex carbs or other
food stuffs, which will nourish bacteria just fine.  Sugar does it's damage
*after* you swallow it, by wreaking havoc with your blood sugar and causing
metabolic changes which slow or stop the flow of nutrients to your teeth.
Caffiene, nictotine and alcohol have much the same effect.  Brush all you
want - if you swallowed, it's too late.   Brushing is a band-aid that lets
you get away with a poor diet.

My Big Picture:
===============
- From the above cat study, I conclude that your teeth are espically
  sensitive to your diet and may take a while regain health, but will
  quickly lose it if your diet suffers.

- Fruit sugar contained in fruits and vegetables is not (as much) of a
  problem because "it's supposed to be there" i.e. as many people on this
  list will know, we have evolved for millions of years to eat fruit, so
  it's pretty unlikely that in the last 100 years, fruit sugar became a
  poison for our teeth.  However, it's worth noting that hundreds or
  thousands of years of selective breeding of plants have produced much much
  much sweeter varieties of fruit than existed in the wild.  Also,
  commercially available fruits are a small subset of fruits available in
  the wild and eaten by other higher primates.  Finally, fruit juice is
  *NOT* the same as fruit.  Fruit juice may be called raw, but it's sure is
  processed.  No animal, including humans, is biologically equipped to drink
  fruit/vegetable juice.  It isn't going to kill you, but it causes the same
  blood sugar spikes as white refined sugar does, so be careful!  (in the
  same vien, brown sugar, demera sugar, refined grape juice and most other
  "natural" sweeteners are likely no better.  I try to avoid them all.

- While caffiene affects the flow of nutrients like sugar does, it's
  delivery vehicle (coke, coffee, whatever) has other nasty effects.  Coffee
  (inc. decaf) is highly acidic, and just has a drastic effect on the ph of
  your mouth, imparing the function of your saliva in preventing tooth decay

- In general, it seems that processing foods in any way seems to do the most
  harm.  i.e. turning fruit in to juice, sugar cane into sugar, brown rice
  into white rice, even grain into flour or flakes.

- Lastly, standard health advice applies, be happy, have a positive outlook,
  a strong social network etc etc

So after all this reading and $6000 worth of dental work, have I stopped
brushing my teeeh?  No.  Despite my fervent belief that we are still quite
genetically capable of protecting our own teeth, I myself and too scared of
losing what few I have left to experiment on my teeth.  I do have some
positive thoughts that others can try and explore.

I had never really noticed any corelation between what I ate and how my
teeth felt.  As I slowly developed a tooth ache in two of my molars, I
noticed the pain came and went, but I could see no rhyme or reason to it.
Then, after they were drilled very deeply and the dentist warned me that
they could die, it hit me very hard.   *Any* amount of sugar produced pain
in about 5 minutes that would last 1/2 hr to a few hours.  Caffiene or
alcohol would produce pain in 6-12 hrs and it would last for 6-12 hrs.
Since my work has finished, I've slipped off the wagon a few times, had a
few beers, had a few espressos, had a few bagels I *knew* had sugar in them
:) :) but  the effect seems somewhat more muted now.  Not sure why, but it's
my own early warning system and a perfect way out when someone offers me
some sweet treat or a drink:  "Sorry, I've wreaked me teeth and I can't eat
any sugar.."

Another closing thought - in the cat study, the immunity to cavities got
progressively worse in each generation of cooked food eaters, so it is
perhaps possible that after x generations of humans eating cooked foods that
we *have* lost some special protection, but I don't think so.  Many of the
tribes studied in Dr. Price's book ate cooked foods w/no problems.

Finally, it should come as no surprise that in addition to feeling better
overall, my teeth feel best on those good/strict/raw/whatever you call'em,
days!  And that to me is evidence enough that you can have substantial
effect on your dental health by altering your diet.

I hope this long ramble has answered your question to some extent.  I
apologize for the length, but I had a lot of ground I wanted to cover.  If
you (or anyone else reading) is curious about a specific item or idea, let
me know and I'll try and find some more info.

ttul
<[log in to unmask]>  *  http://www.wimsey.com/~ssmith/