Kyle,
Thanks; DADT hit me right after I hit send.
On Dec 13, 2007 10:41 AM, Cleveland, Kyle E. <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> APFT = Army Physical Fitness Test
> DADT = "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cerebral Palsy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of Kendall D. Corbett
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 12:12 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: what would you do?
>
> Kyle and Beth,
>
> For those of us with no military background, what are APFT and DADT?
>
> I also wonder if Dick's witch hunt for gays is based on a reaction to
> his
> daughter? I think Mary came out of the closet about the time of the
> Gulf
> War.
>
> On Dec 11, 2007 6:18 AM, Cleveland, Kyle E.
> <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Beth, you're right, of course. I was thinking pre-G.H.W Bush. I'm
> not
> > so sure about the being "tossed out if someone thought you were gay"
> > part unless the accuser had an ulterior motive. I do know that some
> > folks were "outed" by their lovers--that was ugly.
> >
> > I will have to dig for the stats, but the respective services had
> > disproportionate numbers of gay folks--at least in the '80s and '90s.
> > The Navy had the greatest number, followed by the Air Force, Army and
> > lastly, the Marines. I don't know about the CG. They were still
> > considered outside of the "Armed Forces" back then.
> >
> > For the most part, homosexuality is becoming a non-issue for folks in
> > uniform--especially among the younger troops. I admit this is only
> > anecdotal evidence, but the kids in my classes don't seem to care. I
> > will qualify that statement though: In some combat situations, people
> > are forced into incredibly intimate situations--and I'm not just
> talking
> > about sharing a rack.
> >
> > When the Armored Cav units rolled up from Kuwait to Baghdad over the
> > three weeks in March 2003, they were buttoned up almost 100% of the
> time
> > due to the fear of a chem attack. Unlike earlier tanks, the M-1
> Abrams
> > doesn't have a drop panel underneath that the soldiers can do their
> > business. There are urinal tubes, but for defecation another soldier
> > has to hold a plastic back while you take care of things.
> >
> > Tankers were interviewed a couple of years ago (I think it was in
> > military.com) about their feelings regarding sharing a tank with gays.
> > The Armored Cav guys overwhelmingly viewed it in a negative light.
> >
> > What I think you'll see happening is that the military culture will
> > change and that gays will be integrated into the forces and the
> > attitudes will follow.
> >
> > Regarding women in combat, I will say that I have no problem with
> women
> > in overt combat roles, though the rate of pregnancy among females
> > deployed in theater has soared prior to the rate before units were not
> > deployed. Putting a bunch of 18-21 year olds in incredibly stressful
> > situations is going to be a trigger for sexual activity. Intimacy
> > creates comfort. The physical touch afforded by sex is an avenue that
> > many fighting men and women use to create "calm". This is nothing
> new,
> > except that in previous conflicts (with male-only warfighters)
> > prostitution served the same purpose.
> > Women have proven to have just as strong a "warrior ethos" as men. I
> > don't buy the different APFT scoring for men and women. These were
> > created when there was still a prevailing notion that the bar should
> be
> > lower for women because they, as a general rule, were weaker than
> their
> > male counterparts. Baloney! These days there are so many kids coming
> in
> > that have to go through remedial PT that neither sex is especially fit
> > (blame computer games for that).
> >
> > For me, personally, I don't care what my soldiers do when they're not
> in
> > uniform. As long as they can pass the "piss test" for drugs I'm
> happy.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cerebral Palsy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf
> > Of ehthiers
> > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:25 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: what would you do?
> >
> > Actually Kyle, the under the radar thing before DADT is wrong. I was
> in
> > during the Gulf War and I can tell you that Cheney has always been on
> a
> > witch hunt for gays. You could be tossed out if someone thought you
> > were
> > gay and a lot of money was used to investigate people to prove they
> were
> > gay. Trust me, more men in the military are gay than you would
> suspect,
> > and
> > a lot less women are than you think.
> > Adultery was rarely prosecuted to the extent being gay was and
> > basically,
> > anything other than the missionary position is against the UCMJ so,
> > about
> > half the sailors in the fleet could have been prosecuted. <grin>
> >
> > beth t. the OT
> >
> > PS. I didn't watch the general and quite frankly don't care what a
> > person's
> > orientation is, let them serve if they want...
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Cerebral Palsy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > On Behalf Of Cleveland, Kyle E.
> > > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:12 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: what would you do?
> > >
> > > Ken, et al,
> > >
> > > I know this started off as a funny, but this Ken's fellow
> > > Ken's talking about really started a firestorm of discussion
> > > in the military community. Here's some background on the
> > > fellow from the wire service:
> > >
> > > "Keith Kerr, retired Colonel., U.S. Army; retired Brigadier
> > > General, California National Reserve, who submitted a
> > > question about gays in the military, is a member of Hillary
> > > Clinton's 'Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transexual Americans
> > > For Hillary' Steering Committee. He's also part of a film
> > > production crew trying overturn the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
> > > policy."
> > >
> > > From his bio on Servicemembers Legal Defense Network where he
> > > is on the Military Advisory Council:
> > >
> > >
> > > "He retired from the U. S. Army Reserve in 1986 with the rank
> > > of Colonel and was commissioned in the California State
> > > Military Reserve (California National Guard) on 15 March
> > > 1986, where his assignments were Inspector Generaland later,
> > > Chief of Staff. He was appointed Commanding General, Northern
> > > Area Command, CSMR, with headquarters at Alameda Naval Supply
> > > Depot, Alameda, CA and promoted to Brigadier General on 21
> > > February 1991. He held this position until reassigned to
> > > State Headquarters on 31 July 1995. General Kerr retired on 1
> > > June 1996 after
> > > 43 years of service to the United States and the State of
> California."
> > >
> > > "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was one of the worst edicts to come
> > > out of the Clinton White House. In a misguided attempt to
> > > help the cause of gay folks in the military, it actually
> > > forced many out of the system. There have always been
> > > bunches of gays in the military--especially since the
> > > integration of women into Combat Support and Combat Service
> > > Support teams.
> > >
> > > Prior to DADT, nobody cared because gay folks steered
> > > themselves toward the services and jobs that were under the
> > > radar. DADT was unofficially in place long before the law
> > > was passed. Used to be, when a kid wanted out of his/her
> > > enlistment contract they would go to their CO and say, "I
> > > want to quit, so I'm gay--you need to put me out." They'd
> > > get a "General Discharge under Honorable Conditions" and that
> > > was it. NOW there has to be an investigation and the CO has
> > > to determine if there was sexual activity and who the partner
> > > was. Say you have two lesbians in a relationship and one
> > > wants leave before her commitment is up. If she goes to the
> > > CO, then that commander has to verify the act(s) and if they
> > > were with another soldier. The other soldier, who wants to
> > > stay in, has to testify under oath whether or not she had a
> > > sexual relationship with the other soldier. Either way, both
> > > of their military careers are shot and they may get
> > > discharged under "Less That Honorable Conditions". You can't
> > > use your veteran status for job seeking at that point. In
> > > these cases the soldier who wants to leave will be strongly
> > > advised to Chapter 15 out on "Drug and Alcohol" issues with a
> > > General Discharge. DADT is a screwed-up law that never
> > > needed to be there in the first place.
> > >
> > > I saw the debate live and was embarrassed by GEN Kerr's
> grandstanding.
> > > It was very awkward and certainly did nothing to help the gay
> > > community.
> > > On top of that, if he WAS gay during his time in service and
> > > committed a sexual act prohibited by the Uniform Code of
> > > Military Justice (UCMJ), then he should have his retirement
> > > package revoked. This has happened to numerous officers who
> > > have committed adultery while in service (adultery is another
> > > act prohibited by the UCMJ).
> > >
> > > Kyle
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Cerebral Palsy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > On Behalf Of ken barber
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 9:56 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: what would you do?
> > >
> > > you know i wonder why the question on that came up in the GOP
> > > debate when "don't ask, don't tell" was/is a clinton policy.
> > > the clinton news network picked the question and flew the guy
> > > from florida and it was all coincidence? i was borned at
> > > night, but not last nignt.=20
> > >
> > > --- "Kendall D. Corbett" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > But if some of the CG enlistees were gay or lesbian, how
> > > would that
> > > >be viewed under "don't ask, don't tell," which is newly under
> fire?
> > > >=20
> > > > On 12/8/07, Tamar Raine <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > well, then some would be gay or lesbian, and one
> > > > would be transexual! lol!
> > > > >
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > http://www.zazzle.com/TamarMag*
> > > > > Tamar Mag Raine
> > > > > [log in to unmask]
> > > > > www.cafepress.com/tamarmag
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > > From: Deri James <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2007 3:47:02 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: what would you do?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Saturday 08 December 2007 02:22:55 Tamar Raine
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I say let them party! lol! it's only a one hour
> > > > flight!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah, you're right - but I think the airline would
> > > > have to set up a rota,
> > > > > there were 17 females and 25 males!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > >
> > > > > Deri
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > > http://www.zazzle.com/TamarMag*
> > > > > > Tamar Mag Raine
> > > > > > [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > www.cafepress.com/tamarmag
> > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > > > From: ken barber <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 7, 2007 10:45:58 AM
> > > > > > Subject: what would you do?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fasten Seat Belts
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Flying to Los Angeles from San Francisco the
> > > > other
> > > > > > day, a passenger noticed that the "Fasten Seat
> > > > Belts"
> > > > > > sign was kept lit during the whole journey
> > > > although
> > > > > > the flight was a particularly smooth one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just before landing, he asked the stewardess
> > > > about it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Well," she explained, "up front there are 17 University of
> > > > > > California girls going to Los
> > > > Angeles
> > > > > > for the weekend.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "In back, there are 25 Coast Guard enlistees.
> > > > What
> > > > > > would you do?"
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > --=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > Kendall
> > > >=20
> > > > An unreasonable man (but my wife says that's
> > > > redundant!)
> > > >=20
> > > > The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the
> > > unreasonable one
> > > >persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
> > > > Therefore, all progress
> > > > depends on the unreasonable man.
> > > >=20
> > > > -George Bernard Shaw 1856-1950
> > > >=20
> > > > -----------------------
> > > >=20
> > > > To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY list, go here:
> > > >=20
> > > >
> > > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?SUBED1=3Dc-palsy
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =20
> > > ______________________________________________________________
> > > __________
> > > ____________
> > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.=20
> > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> > >
> > > -----------------------
> > >
> > > To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY list, go here:
> > >
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> > >
> > > -----------------------
> > >
> > > To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY list, go here:
> > >
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> > >
> >
> > -----------------------
> >
> > To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY list, go here:
> >
> > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?SUBED1=c-palsy
> >
> > -----------------------
> >
> > To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY list, go here:
> >
> > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?SUBED1=c-palsy
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
>
> Kendall
>
> An unreasonable man (but my wife says that's redundant!)
>
> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all
> progress
> depends on the unreasonable man.
>
> -George Bernard Shaw 1856-1950
>
> -----------------------
>
> To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY list, go here:
>
> http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?SUBED1=c-palsy
>
> -----------------------
>
> To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY list, go here:
>
> http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?SUBED1=c-palsy
>
>
--
Kendall
An unreasonable man (but my wife says that's redundant!)
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.
-George Bernard Shaw 1856-1950
-----------------------
To change your mail settings or leave the C-PALSY list, go here:
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?SUBED1=c-palsy
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