Interesting Joe. i don't know the full story here in the l. i don't know fully the history of many writers. so when i see generalise comments especially if the comments relates to a posting i made, i felt the need to clarify. but i you said ,some folks here have ugly history ,so i just happen to misunderstood the semantics of things.I wasn't here when the NADD issue was being debated.
   
  Thanks Joe for the elaborated explanations, you could have answered me differently. I personally see yahya as a man leading a band of willing assassins. he personally doesn't commit the many crimes we all know about.our brothers aid him in the efforts. that's what i mean when i wrote ''he is our making''. he is the leader of the ills committed against innocent Gambians. that i agree. but Joe, we all know our brothers are willing to line up their pockets at yahya's offerings. they agree to commits crimes for him. yes ,he is the big fish ,but do you think ,we wouldn't have another monster like?
   
  yahya's crimes have nothing to do with him beings jola. what about the jawara's mismanagement ,should that also have some thing to do with him being a Mandingo? no. this are individual draw backs for our society. i have a plan Joe, mine will be unpopular for now. so i am following developments with the existing parties. i hope they get there acts together. there need to be a compromise .all the potential leaders need to slower their big egos. that will help in a small way. again thanks Joe for the enormous explanations.

Joe Sambou <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
  Suntou, thanks for your response. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I accused you of tribal bigotry. That has never been on my mind and I never said that. For starters, mine was a general commentary on the issue. I mentioned your name towards the end and that should be restricted to those specific references, and was never meant to be stretched to the genesis of this discussion. Yes, it is natural to defend your ethnic group when you believe they are attacked unjustifiably and I have no issue with you or anyone that rebutted Sam's opinions and Sam should expect that. I have learned to not be responsible for people's opinions. I don't know how long you have been online, but there was hardly a day that you don't hear a direct attack on Jolas, justified or not, because of Yaya. Even though I knew some of that was utter nonsense, but I chose to ignore most of them. The only person I went after was Ebou Jallow, not because of his comments regarding Jolas, but
 for his theft of our resources with Yaya Jammeh, that some Gambians attempted to give him a pass on. Yes, in deed, things must be put into perspective. As to you playing your part, my comments are my opinion about the passion displayed on the subject. I am saying that we can discuss the issue of tribalism and I think it is very healthy and certainly better than a civil war or a cleansing affair. I also believe that if we use the same passion to address our current problem in the Gambia, we will get far.

Regarding the issue about some Gambians thinking that they own Gambia, I am writing my perspective. When it was fashionable to lambaste Jolas in the process of trying to get to Yaya, no pebble was left to settle and many of those very people are still online. Some went as far as dissecting who is a Gambian and who is not and how Jolas are not Gambians. I knew that was just plain silliness. So, when you hear me reference that some people think they own Gambia, please read it in perspective. I don't drink nor do I smoke weed to comment under the influence. You have heard me make this comment over and over and that is deliberate. I am very clear with my statements. Some of those very people surfaced during the NADD crisis singing from the same script, but shrouded under that guise of we are the majority. So, let us not get amnesia on something that is not even more than two elections ago. 

Regarding the issue of a spent force, I think there is a difference of perspective here. Spent force is a figure of speech and all it means for me is that those parties discussed are not here to harm Gambians today, thus, I Joe, will discuss them, however my bigger concern is the one that is currently murdering Gambians today. None of those parties murdered any Gambian. They did not make folks disappear either, at least I have not read that in the discussions. For your comment about commodities and tools, let's just laugh about it because I don't think you seriously believe that I think that.

I agree with your outlook that Yaya is the creation of Gambians. However, I disagree that he is not the Gambian problem. You do not see the average Gambian slaughtering 12 students and Mr. Barro. Corro Ceesay was not murdered by a market woman? The countless soldiers that have been murdered were not slaughtered by boy scouts. No Gambian has more that 50 cars to their name, an Air craft, a zoo, and dishing our millions of Dalasis to coerce the poor. Crude Oil I and II was not taken by your or my uncle, etc. And so, it is a fact that Yaya Jammeh is the Gambian problem. You live in the UK, you think the Brits will allow elections to be run like Yaya does in the Gambia - have the IEC at his clutch; have department heads bully their subordinates to buy his Ashobe and donate to his campaign; spend all the air time he needs for free and deny the opposition air time; use our coffers to coerce the poor voters and for those that do not give in, have his thugs to intimidate you or
 dare you to campaign in their area. The biggest carrot is to threaten to deny services to those that vote against him and he follows through on that. You and I know that elections under dictatorships are never free or fair, as we just witnessed in Kenya. So to say that Gambians voted for Yaya loosely, even though you know as well as I do that is not the case, really baffles me. Nonetheless, if that is what you believe, like George says, "Va Pasero". 

Having said the above, the purpose of my last paragraph from my previous mail was just to say that we are the change we seek. But that change will never come by just writing on-line alone. There needs to be organization, folks actually attending gatherings of like minds to come up with a road map to starting the change process. No Different for the two ruling forces in your neck of the woods or the Democrats and Republicans in mine. Change is never going to happen on the cheap or on easy street, especially when you are trying to uproot a dictatorship. Our current problem is folks will shoot down any drive but will never replace that which they destroy with their own strategy. For example, you say you do not associate with any political party on the ground, and they do not have a strategy. That is a fair statement. However, a follow up, does Suntou have a plan? If not, do you need a plan? If your answer is no, then I say case close. If yes, what are you waiting for? If you
 already have a plan that you believe will work, what's holding you? You and I are stakeholders just like the party leaders. If we do not like what we see, let us mobilize, find or form a party that would do it and wage a campaign. The problem is, we always stop at the criticism of the parties but offer nothing in their place. As for coded messages, that is not Joe. Reading what I just wrote, you think coded language is my thing?

In closing, by any means continue with Sam for how ever long your desire. You also have to let me opine and that is how we can continue. Contrary to those that want to hush hush this debate, I think it is very healthy for we know what the alternative could be. Just like Rwanda, Kenya, Sudan, etc., Gambians also have their own tribal contradictions. After, our 1981 event, Gambia is no different from other places. 

A little story may be in order regarding that coup. I had a severe bout of pneumonia weeks leading to the beginning of the first gun fire and I had just started taking my injections at a clinic. I was stuck and was getting weaker. I was alerted that someone (name withheld) that i had a spat with on the soccer field was looking for me, so I had to go underground. My pneumonia was getting worse and it was suggested that I drink warn lime (diluted). Then a problem, for the only place I know where to get the lime was through Sere-Kunda primary, at a friend’s house. Compounding to that, some sick dudes with their SLRs called themselves manning Churchill’s town junction, near Mr. Alieu Jack's compound and were doing target practice at anything they saw cross from the distance. Couple of folks were killed on my street that way. After couple of days of misery, I decided to brave it across to my friend's. As my luck would have it, I ran into a commando wanna be midway into the
 school. I don't know who this guy thought he was setting an ambush for between the buildings and he had his back towards me. As I approach him I stepped on some dry leaves that startled him. The dude turned around with one crazy look and squared with me with his finger on the trigger and aimed. I was stunned. Apparently, he had been shooting around hours before my arrival and the neighbors were very nervous, thus when he started asking me questions in an angry tone they stood in their compounds pleading with him all while this fool faced me at close range. I tried to say something and he snapped, so I went mute. Then he came closer still pointing his rifle and put it on my chest and ask me to empty my pockets. I told him I was sick and do not have a butut on me. All this while elderly women pleaded with him. He ripped my pockets as he searched me. I was actually saved by his sister, who was renting next door to the main gate of the school. She was crying profusely and kept
 telling him to put the rifle down. Dude's eyes were bloodshot and he looked tranced. For what felt like eternity, he ask me which compound I was heading to and I pointed to the compound, and he had me march ahead of him with my hands over my head. I kept wondering what he was up to. When the family saw me through their fence, heading towards their gate, they unlocked it and ran for cover. Dude walked me to the gate and some how I thought he was going to do something stupid and sure enough, by instinct, I pushed the gate and dove under only to hear the butt of the rifle smash at the corrugated gate. I have never been that terrified in my life. I spent the night there because he promised that if he ran into me again that would be my end. When the mayhem was over and Jawara started rounding folks up, the same dude was hiding at his sisters because folks were reporting each other justified or not. The moment I saw him I immediately recognized him and I saw the terrified look
 on him. This time around, he was the one that was scared, for he was certain I was going to report him. You folks recalled the brutality when those soldiers came for any. I asked him if he recognized me and he pretended not to. I reminded him of the incident and the neighbors came to plead with me. I just told him that I was not going to report him, I just wanted to thank him for sparing my life, for he could have taken me out just like that for there was nothing to stop him. However, he did not trust me and disappeared after that. So, when I say that ours is just as volatile as the other worse cases we witnessed in our continent, I was among the lucky stats in that chaos. Thus, each time I saw the rebels in Liberia, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Rwanda, etc., on TV, I have a flashback of my encounter. So, I will take discussion any day over the possible alternatives.

Chi Jaama

Joe

> Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 07:07:47 +0000> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [>-<] those who think this nonsense topic is done with are in for a shock. mk jallow in the fram> To: [log in to unmask]> > Joe, for my part, i never promote tribal bigotry. i am all for equality and respect. but as halifa once said ''you cannot change the cause of history by facing the portrait to the wall''. i did not place the mandinkas over any small or large Gambian tribe. putting things in perspective is part of every day exchanges ,from the financial world to the journalistic ,legal etc. that is why i took part in the debate. i have said and done my little for effectiveness of democracy for the Gambia. i will continue to play my part in ways i am comfortable with. yes ,we can all make statements that arouse passions, but which Gambian can you point out who believe rightly that '' they own the Gambia'' in the exclusion of others? human beings are never a spent force. people are
 not tools or commodities. however bad some one is ,they may have a good quality to them. i believe when it is history that is being discussed, the people at the centre of the discussion have the right to have> their say. unless ,we want to discard them to the past. history is all about the past .i would rather listen to a party to a crime than a secondary source. i call for African unity ,not just the Gambian unity. our bond is strong. for that we need to uphold what make us a better people. yahya is not the problem .he is what we make him to be. he is our making. Gambians voted for him to rule .they did that for three consecutive elections. i think it is time we direct our efforts to the people not just yahya. it is an easy option to talk and write about yahya ,but the electorate choose him all the time ,why? we need to stop the blame game and coded messaging and talk frank.i do not associate with any of the current political parties. i don't think they have a strategy to
 bring in change. all of them. it is a call for every Gambian to think about . we don't just want yahya out ,but why him out and what systems to put in place to safe guard the safety and prosperity of the> people.> > Joe Sambou wrote: Abdou you wrote:> > "Gambia is for all Gambians". > > You cannot be more right. Sometimes we get carried away or are blinded by our ethnicities and our perceptions of their greatness. That may have worked in the past. It is a new day and it better behooves all to realize that their best bet is to see themselves as Gambians first and their ethnicity last. It is that stupid mentality that we have the village idiot currently man handling the rest of Gambia and touting his jola greatness and the the greatness of his forefathers. How come we are not putting most of our energies to doing something about Yaya? The other thing is, folks, look closely at the participants that compose the ruination of Gambia today and you shall see that all the
 ethnicities are knee deep in helping Yaya do a job on Gambians. When we talk about the murderers in that country, you see all the ethnicities represented. Those that are illegally detained, you see all ethnicities represented. The criminal element in today's Gambia, you see all the Groups> represented. The corrupt elderly that stroke Yaya's ego, you see all the ethnicities represented. Then all of a sudden we say let's get rid of the cancer, then we see the silliness in us talking about majority and minority control or the greatest minority or majority. Abdou, Africans in America are just 12% (+/- 2%), does that mean that Obama cannot be president, because he is an African-American? Your point is right on. What matters is, is the person qualified? I careless whether Yaya is a Jola. Is he making Gambia a better place for all? That should be our primary interest. When folks start touting the greatness of their ethnicity or religion, you cannot but have to also entertain
 another to come and talk about the greatness of his ethnicity or counter your opinion, as mindless as it is. The way I see it, Gambia has thus far two Presidents and both combined are the reason for the sorry state our people live today. Some may see them as Mandingo and Jola President,> respectively, but I see them as an incompetent Dawda Jawara and and incompetent and Murderer as in Yaya Jammeh? Yaya got rid of Jawara the person and can never get rid of the Mandingoes. Thus, our efforts should be put to getting rid of Yaya the person. You take care of the head, you will realize that the support cast will be stripped. > > Is the Gambia owned by the Wolofs and Mandingoes? Hell no. How about the Fulas, if the first two combined can never own it, how can the one ever own it? And we are yet to hear the Saraghulehs, Jolas, Njagos, Serers, Papel, Balanta, Bambara, Aku, Housa, Mende, etc., etc., tell us how great their's is. The current debate as far as I am concerned is healthy
 for through discussion we are going to flush out the contradictions within us. It started as a Mandingo-Wolof debate/opinion and now the Fulas take a seat. I'd rather deal with discussion and everyone continue living, than we sit on our thoughts and see a Rwanda fall on our lap. I am also more concerned about the Gambia our people are living today, than the actors of yesterday. After I emptied my chest on Jawara's mediocrity, all my energies, since the entrance of our current mediocre and murderer, is to fight to get rid of Yaya. I would rather see the current opinion heads in the debate to also be in the fore front of the> campaign to get rid of our current problem. I have seen Saul Khan very active and he has also contributed financially to effect change in the Gambia. I want to see Sam Sarr, Suntou, Mathew and many others that chimed in this discussion, to show the same passion in getting rid of our current problem, not only through penmanship alone but to join others
 to make change a reality. If you have done that behind the shadows, then bravo, but what are you afraid of to come out and stand and be counted? If we want to continue to demystify our ethnic biases and the actors within, what a better place than to dive right in our current landscape. These are people we all we know that are alive plundering the little we have. That would be more productive that dwell on spent forces. Are you folks afraid of doing something about Yaya, the reason you want to focus to infinity on your perception of the history of our past, real or imagined? Some of our most vocal have been writing here for a> decade or more and yet, not a soul has ever seen them in any gathering called to bring about change. How bizzare. After a decade or more of fighting Yaya on your couch, how about standing up and stretching your legs and join your fellow citizens in a gathering for change. I care less what tribe one hails from, than the content of their character. > >
 Chi Jaama> > Joe > > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:51:59 +0000> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [>-<] those who think this nonsense topic is done with are in for a shock. mk jallow in the fram> To: [log in to unmask]> > Yanks> Stop it and stop it for a period! You will be class in the same boat and it is not Gambia we are looking. Earlier on the same issue my posulation is that we in United Kingdom, let us look around with New Labour Gordon Brown a Prime Minister, a scottish and a minority group but is the majority English people looking at him and his Scottish identity NO! It is about time to advocate for tolerant as elite and allow to be carried away or peddling divisive politic. My brother your legal mind and define sense of direction should allow to be strongly against illusive literal work mean to divide our people but you should stay away from that narrow mindedness. Gambia is for all Gambian and let us not be driven with sensation and
 emotion to sow the seed> discontention among our people who have been for years living under politics of marginalisation.> > yanks dabo wrote:> Suntu> > "Ee-ning bara bakeh"! > > William Hazlitt stated in 1830; “Prejudice is the child of ignorance”. > > Those Manding haters express nothing more than their ignorance about our people!> > Abaraka!> > Brethren Yanks > > > > Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:54:31 +0000> > From: [log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: [>- To: [log in to unmask]> >> > just a few words to mathew jallow.> >> > http://www.thegambiaecho.com/Homepage/tabid/36/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1082/Default.aspx> >> > SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:> > yusupha, your comments are reassuring. i was born in sierra Leon like some other Gambians. we can narrate endlessly how peaceful those people were in the early to late 80's. the sierra leonean even work their socks off for foreign investors and diamond dealers. they are peace loving and they love partying, the same
 can be said of the> Liberians. no one party more than Liberians. but look what happens there. also the average Gambian love to party .we are little different. i feel our religiosity is a major factor in our low rate of violence. but looking at the world today ,one can see people doing the must honourable things in the name of religion and again the must dishonourable things in the name of god and religion. we need to stop pottiness before it trigger evil. look what happen after the advent of the crazy foday sankoh ,i suspect every human being. we all have the monster in us. not all sierra leoneans took part in the mascaras but the result affect every citizen of> > that country. when some Gambians are today calling tribal discussion intellectual ,they don't know what they are talking about. racism is the biggest reason many people where murdered without any remorse. what is the difference between racism and tribalism? human beings can do the must heinous crimes for flimsy
 reasons. that is why> i think it is unhealhty to try to wind-up each other. yes ,all things being equal ,i too careless who talks about me or my tribe but is that how the majority will react? let us look far ahead then we will never be caught up in an unnecessary blood shed.> > thanks yusu and dave.> > Yusupha Jow wrote: Suntou:> > I don't think you should look too much into these pieces. They are simply the opinions of individuals; nothing more, nothing less. They do not reflect the majority view of Gambians which is why they are op-ed pieces that the Gambia Echo and Freedom Newspaper do not endorse. In this respect, I don't think there is anything wrong with the Freedom Newspaper or Gambia Echo carrying these pieces. If anything, it gives us insights, albeit sometimes disturbing to us, into some views about the issue of tribalism as it pertains to Gambia.> >> > You will never catch me wading into such debates simply because I really don't have much to contribute to them.
 While I lived in The> Gambia like our so-called experts on this matter, I chose very early on to deal with human beings on the basis of their merits or demerits as human beings; not because of what language they happened to speak. I am sure many Gambians feel the same way.> >> > Rest assured that no amount of articles on The Gambia Echo or Freedom Newspaper will ever change this fact. Take a deep breath and relax brother.> >> > Thanks> > Yusupha> >> > On Feb 18, 2008 10:59 AM, SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:> > www.thegambiaecho.com> >> > by now you must have probably read what saint Mathew have to say in defence of colonel sam. it is sad that still people are trying to get some glory out of an irrelevant topic like discussing tribalism. who will degrade his/her own race,tribe or language for another? throughout history ,it has never been the case among whites. it is mostly we non-whites who try to vilify our race or culture for another . the important thing here is ,men who are teir
 fifties or late> forties are still trapped with infant brains. what was Mathew thinking or can i put it frankly what did he take before writing his piece? this is exposing some thing unpleasant among the Gambian family. time will tell. we need honest and season intellectuals to discuss issues of history and culture. but any one who trust his command of English taping on his computer sending inaccurate and misleading historical account is dangerous. Africa is fill with self-crown intellectual who need proper training on> > the field of intellectual discourse. we the young ones are left with no option to but take issues in our own hand .where are Gambia's honest intellectuals? i mean men of the calibre of Dr Sulayamn Nyang and some others with little exposure? the sam and mkj are not what we need going round in nonsensical circles ,writing about issues they don't have any glue about. what benefit do we gain from discussing this irrelevant topic? i suggest we start discussing
 the reasons that> lead the west to rule over us even though collectively our population is far more than they are. what are the key reasons behind our disorganisation and lack of proper institutions that can cater for every John ,aplha, sainey or malang? from Nigeria to Zimbabwe. form Dakar to ivory coast. why are we still languishing in the past? this are some serious issues African or Gambian need discussing. with a proper governance ,issues or Tribe is completely irrelevant. on a second thought ,what ever is> > happening in other African countries can happen in the Gambia ,why ,disgruntle colonels and unstable journalist can lead us to a path which will be completely misguided and dangerous. we need to watch out and learn from others mistakes.> >> >> >> >> >> > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤> > To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface> > at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html> >> >
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