It sure is much better this way.  They say experience is the best teacher 
and I believe it is true.

Virgie and lady Hoshi
doing business at

www.vunderwood.ktostemtech.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Followership concluded


> Virgie,
>
> Yeah it sure does. It isn't necessarily a popular topic with folks, but 
> there is no denying God's design, I think he knows too many cooks spoil 
> the meal as well warriors without a chief might scatter and lose focus. 
> Many times leaders that don't  lead, lends a follower to think they need 
> to jump in, but that doesn't work. Conversely there are  followers that 
> don't follow, and leave a leader leading no one, and thus reducing it to 
> two or more followers running in separate directions with no leader. Peace 
> and sense of stability comes when folks take their places , even if things 
> are rough and seem tough, it really is the best and there are learning 
> curves in both areas that require grace. You'd think my words would lend 
> themselves to think they speak from experience or something  huh. They do, 
> and I have, and believe me, it is much better this way :).
>
> Brad
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 03:50 PM 7/30/2007, you wrote:
>>Hello Brad,
>>Thank you for sharing this.  It is definitely food for thought and makes 
>>one take a long hard look at ones self.
>>
>>Virgie and lady Hoshi
>>doing business at
>>
>>www.vunderwood.ktostemtech.com
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "B Dunse" <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 12:28 PM
>>Subject: Followership concluded
>>
>>
>>Conclusion of Followership...
>>
>>
>>I'm coming down to an important  realization for
>>which groundwork has been laid. That is to not
>>follow God, does not remove him from his position
>>as leader. Satan found out what it was to test
>>the authoritative position of God. If a student
>>were to not obey their teacher or professor in
>>college, that does not remove them from being
>>their teacher or professor. It will just get them
>>an "F."  It does not remove either of them from
>>their positions as leader and follower. The
>>student will have to take it again next year, and
>>they will take it until they say "yes" when the
>>answer is "yes", no matter what they believe it is.
>>
>>There are three simple ways to find out if you
>>are a leader or a follower in life. You'll need
>>to survey each area of your life and ask yourself
>>"Am I a leader here or a follower here?" But God
>>has provided a way to make that determination.
>>
>>1. God's specific written word. God's Word
>>plainly speaks to many areas of life and tells us
>>if we are a leader or a follower. If God's Word
>>is already predetermined and has given His Word
>>on a matter or category, then we fit in that
>>category. The Bible instructs children to obey
>>their parents.  Parents then are leaders and
>>children are followers. There is no use praying
>>to try to move God to change those positions.
>>There are no reasons to think there are
>>special  exemptions why that does not apply to us
>>in any case. If you are a child, you are a
>>follower in that child -parent relationship.  If
>>you're a parent you are a leader in that
>>child-parent relationship. If you are a leader
>>you are responsible to lead, if you are a
>>follower you are responsible for following. Very
>>simply, if God already tells your position in his
>>Word, then you know what to do. If God does not
>>say it in very plain language such as
>>parent-child for example, there is still.
>>
>>2. Biblical examples. God's Word shows clear
>>Biblical  examples, patterns and principles that
>>show a predetermination how leaders and followers
>>should flow. He said in Romans 13 for us to obey
>>those that have the rule over us. He is talking
>>about policemen, kings, and governments. If an
>>individual is riding down the road at fifty miles
>>an hour in a fifty-five mile an hour zone, and a
>>policeman puts on his red lights behind them,
>>that does not give them the right  to not stop.
>>If the  policeman then says they were going
>>sixty-five in a fifty-five mile an hour zone,
>>begins to write the ticket, and because the
>>individual does not think that the policeman is
>>right they begin to argue. They had better find
>>submission there somewhere, because if they don't
>>they are going to make things worse. They are not
>>going to change the policeman's mind. They will
>>have to appeal to a higher authority. If they
>>continue to fuss and fight with him, they might
>>end up with a larger penalty or jail time if they
>>let it get out of hand. If an individual does not
>>agree with those in a position of authority or
>>leader, they need to submit, remain loyal, and
>>talk to the leader's authority about it. If they
>>complain to other people about it, it is
>>disloyalty. They can go talk to the judge about
>>it, then it is not disloyalty, and They are not causing problems.
>>
>>3. Who works for who? one of the best ways for
>>people to determine if they are a leader or a
>>follower is to ask themselves. who hired me? Who
>>hired who and who can fire who? If I hire an
>>Associate Pastor, I am his or her boss. I can and
>>would be responsible if need be to fire them. I
>>hired them, so I can fire them. That is basic. In
>>that situation I'm the leader and they're the
>>follower. They ought to obey my instruction.
>>However, if we come to a time when he/she does
>>not want to do what I instruct them, they will
>>need to find submission. They are welcome to
>>bring all their counsel to the table, and any and
>>everything to support their view. In reality,
>>often they have done that and changed my mind. It
>>is good to have a leader in which you can change
>>his or her mind. A leader finds wisdom in
>>understanding that there are others that are
>>smarter, wiser, or better than he or she  in some
>>areas. Leaders value that, but at the end of the
>>day if the leader says to do it anyway? The
>>follower needs to find submission. Once submitted
>>the follower needs to enter into loyalty in
>>supporting the leader by not complaining to others.
>>
>>Those are simple ways of finding out if you are a
>>leader or a follower. I ran into one of my dear
>>friends who is one of the great youth pastor's in
>>America. He finally found disagreement with the
>>elders of his church and his pastor. At that
>>point he realized he didn't have a youth group,
>>they did. He had a mortgage, he had a car payment
>>and kids to raise, but he didn't have a job. He
>>didn't have a place to preach. He told me, "I
>>built that youth group", I said to him "Yes, and
>>you got paid for it, but you found out who it
>>belonged to didn't you?"  Who's the leader? Who's
>>the follower? That's really pretty simple in most
>>areas of life. If a student in class or an
>>employee in their office, stands up at their desk
>>and tells a teacher or employer they are just not
>>going to do what was instructed to them, if they
>>have any doubts, they'll find out very  soon
>>who's the leader and who is the follower.
>>Followers are responsible to follow, to obey when
>>they agree, to submit when they don't, and to be loyal at all cost.
>>
>>There are areas of people's life that they are in
>>a position of follower, and there are areas of
>>their life which they are in a position of
>>leader. Please look at the areas of your life. If
>>you are a leader in an area, lead with grace and
>>gentleness,  embracing the idea that others that
>>you lead are wiser and smarter; more able and
>>stronger  than you are in their respective areas.
>>If you are a leader and not leading people that
>>are more capable than you, you will need to look
>>at your leadership principles. A good leader
>>should lead based upon the greater strength of
>>those who he leads. David did not overtake as
>>many  people as  his mighty men did, because he
>>understood their strengths. He embraced their
>>strengths letting them lead under his authority
>>of leadership, but they followed him as their
>>leader. If you're a follower work on the times
>>you're faced with doing something you don't agree
>>with. It's easy to do the things you agree with.
>>Work on loyalty and not complaining about it. If
>>we follow the pattern of Satan's disagreement
>>rebellion and  disobedience to God, his example
>>of leader and not followership, we can see what
>>it will cost, and that is not a road that we want to travel.