Hello, perhaps I should say that theSIC, in its current form, should
not have any authority to say anything about hte Qur'an! If they can
let Jammeh use it in such a blasphemous way, i.e. holding it while
rubbing oitment on semi-nude women, etc., and otherwise use it in his
"curing" episodes, and also otherwise use Islam to further entrech
himself (why isn't the SIC saying anything about all of that?) then
turn around and say that the Ahmadiyya can't translate it and that all
Islamic matters go through them, to me that is hypocritical!
If you are going to be an organization who oversees *all* Islamic
affairs, then you have to speak out against things, even if it's
against your own President! I'm not addressing the Ahmadiyya, etc.,
and who does, or doesn't have a right to translate the Qur'an. If the
SIC should be the sole body who over seems Islamic matters in The
Gambia, then should every country have an Islamic body? If we here in
the US, can translate Islamic texts, without an overseeing body, than
why not The Gambia?
In my mind, the SIC has lost all moral authority to oversee anything
Islamic or otherwise! That is what I'm trying to say, because when
they allow one thing but want to disallow something else, then that's
hypocrisy, and we all know that hypocrisy is worse than disbelief!
Perhaps if the SIC had been doing its job thoroughly and not showing
favor by letting Jammeh misuse Islam, the Qur'an, etc., then I'd feel
differently about the issue! But these people have shown no authority
and have no leg to stand on regarding the Ahmadiyya!
But I guess since Jammeh's "healing" people and he's a "Muslim" while
"those Ahmadis are just kafirs", well, then I guess the SIC is OK!
I wonder why no one seems to be calling the SIC out on their
hypocrisy! The only reason I can come up with is that the other
erstwhile commentors dislike the Ahmadiyyas *more* than they dislike
Jammeh's misuse of Islamic symbols (and the SIC's seeming endorsement
of it by not speaking out against it!)
Listen, I'm not sure that I agree with having a Supreme Islamic Concil
anyway, as Sunni Muslims (as Gambinas are to my knowledge) don't have
any kind of "hierarchy" like other religious groups do. However, if
there is going to be a religious body drawn up to supervise the
religious affairs of the communities they are seeking to serve, then
they need to be neutral, impartial, and not in bed with the current
political leadership nor seeking to curry favor withthem, or
displaying sycophancy toward them!
Thus, my conclusion that the SIC, in its current incarnation, has no
right or moral authority to tell the Ahmadiyya anything, unless and
until they speak out against other ills they see! Regarding the
traditional Eid visits, that would be a perfect time to advise Jammeh!
That's all I'm saying! If people want to support Jammeh's misuse of
Islam, indirectly albeit, by supporting the SIC, just because the SIC
is speaking out against someone or something that they don't
particualrly like, then go right ahead! I'd like to know why people
weren't speaking out when those videos of Jammeh came out and he was
supposedly "curing" people, with recitations of the Qur'an playing in
the background! I didn't see anyone speak out then! And to me that's
just plain hypocrisy, pure and simple!
Ginny
On 12/8/07, Y Jallow <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> Karim,
>
> I go a long way with Haruna's argument on the matter.
>
>
> I said it here before that tolerance and acceptance has its limits to where
> it must be tolerable and acceptable. Beyond that, it is a criminal act for
> one to intentionally twist the holy verses. It is as well a criminal act to
> fold your hands in the name of 'tolerance' and 'acceptance' to watch anyone
> twist the holy verses. It becomes even more criminal to endorse their
> efforts in altering the verses. This vindicates the quranic verse that
> challenged all those that disbelief in it, to produce verses of their own,
> resembling what was given to the noble prophet to deliver.
>
>
> http://www.iladinolong.com/lectures/abdullah/abdullah.html
>
>
> Now here is the truth to the matter. When I asked where does true
> 'tolerance' lie, I meant to say what indication of Ghulam's books showed
> tolerance and acceptance of others' faith. In the links provided above, the
> honorable Imam Fatty quoted from Ghulam's own books. If these quotes are to
> go by, I see nothing but tales of a misguided religious bigot, thrilled with
> arrogance at the mercy of his own hallucinations-uniting with God in a bed
> as in intercourse. (Subhanallah a million times.) Or that the families of
> Jesus (PBUH) were prostitutes? (Subhanallah a million times.)
>
>
> They know what to do, i.e. as was suggested to them. Caprice!!!
>
> I rest my case.
>
> Yero
>
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 20:04:31 -0500> From: [log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Ahmadiyya: Translation of the Qur'an> To:
> [log in to unmask]> > > Thank you Karim, you're too kind. I must
> say once and for all that I value > you, Ousman, and Suntou just as much if
> not more than you yield from from > association with me. I cherish the
> comraderie and communion. If I were to be made > aware of folly or
> inadequacy in any area of our relations, I will not > hesitate to ammend my
> position and views accordingly. That will be good for me.> > Thank you all
> once again for enriching all our lives.> > Haroun, for goodness sakes. MQDT.
> Darbo.> > In a message dated 12/7/2007 5:57:23 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
> > [log in to unmask] writes:> > Haruna> You are so focus and
> you digest every peace of what you and agree and > disagree which makes your
> contribution on thematic issues so fertilized and for > many like myself so
> enlighten. Cross fertilization of ideas enriches both > academic and
> intellectual debate. Keep it up!> > Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:> > "Suntou and Haruna" Karim.> > Hi Karim, good to hear you.> >
> "Ahmadiyya are muslims." Karim.> > It would appear so. But I do not want to
> speak for Muslims or the Ahmadiyya. > Being Muslim, Christian, and or
> Ahmadiyya is a state of mind. Faith in the > unknown distilled in the books
> for missionary exploits.> > "If extremist are using Islam to justify their
> violence against innocent > people because theological interpretation of
> islam why not Ahmadiyya none > violent but they challenge through scholarly
> and intellectualism of the Holy > Quran." Karim.> > Karim, I donm't think
> the Ahmadiyya wish to be extremist for extremism > sakes. Besides, if I see
> any extremist translating the Bible or Qur'an > because > they are
> intellectuals I would suggest other enterprise for them to yield > more >
> value from extremism.> > "Suntou belief me or not the Ahmadiyya are very
> scholarly with both the > Quran and the tradition of the holy Prophet
> Muhammed(May peace and Blessing > of > Allah be upon him)." Karim.> > I
> agree with you here Karim. And the Ahmadiyya ought to be encouraged and >
> supported by the Ahmadiyya in their scholarly pursuits just as Muslims and >
> Christians ought to support and encourage pursuits in their faiths.> > > "We
> are know our sectarism in Islam but It does not warrant us to called > them
> non muslims." Karim.> > I agree with you again. In fact non-Ahmadiyya ought
> not characterize the > Ahmadiyya as Muslim or non-muslim. That will make for
> religious tolerance. > Sectarianism is the purview of the Sectarian and I
> discourage Suntou from > such > tendencies were they to have been apparent
> in him. It is foolhardy.> > Masoud. No Rashid this time. MQDT. Darbo. Al
> Mutawakkil. This is a legal > matter that can be pre-enmpted by the
> Ahmadiyya. It will represent a waste > of > resources in translation but
> that is the honourable thing to do for the > health > of the Ahmadiyya. Such
> activity will be counterproductive to their > missionary > exploits.> >
> SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:> Masoud precisely my point as brother mo said
> earlier.The Pakistani > parliament pass a motion to the points you raised
> .they advice them to > either come out > clean about where they belong or
> stop using the name Islam and Muslim on > there missionary activity ,they
> refuse and then left for England where they > operate.no one have any hidden
> agenda against them ,let them operate where > ever > they so wish but that
> should be on a platform like the Bahia ,etc.> The movement was sued in
> Pakistan in the early 1980's to stop using the name > Islam whilst going
> against every commandment of the prophet of Islam.no > ill-feeling is
> intended against them ,we love our fellow country men and > women > who are
> ahamadiya but there is a limit we can tolerate .i hope the situation > is >
> amicably solved.> > Haruna Darbo wrote:> > The Ahmadiyya must cease and
> desist from translating the Qur'an EVEN IN > ENGLISH.> They will have to be
> brought before a court of law in every nation by > Christians and Muslims.
> Christians also because it is just a matter of time > before > some idiot
> tries to translate the bible according to his/her own > understanding for
> people who do not speak English. Translation without > express permission >
> by appropriate authority, especially with a view to affect intent and >
> meaning of religion, is a crime. The Islamic council (They should jettison >
> the > Supreme), is the appropriate authority for Gambia muslims.> > The
> Ahmadiyya ought to write their own scriptures if they wish to play >
> missionary in Gambia. Then they can translate those scriptures in any of a >
> multitude of languages. The prior and on-going goodwill and philanthropy of
> > the > Ahmadiyya risks being tarnished and must not be considered in this >
> ill-advised > encroachment on the health of any other religion. I hope they
> > un-trans-friggin-late and save us all from anxiety. They must not wait for
> > the Islamic council > to advise them of propriety. They have been pioneers
> in propriety. I am very > > disappointed in them. Barring their conduct in
> propriety, the Islamic > council ought to file suit for an injunction and a
> withdrawal of their > Gambia > charter. Each nation's Islamic council should
> independently deal with this > matter: > Senegal, Mali, Ghana, Nigeria,
> Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, etcetera. We don't > have time for this.> >
> Haruna.> > > > In a message dated 12/7/2007 12:39:20 A.M. Mountain Standard
> Time, > [log in to unmask] writes:> > Ousman ,even in the u.s where you
> are based ,religion get hot some times but > that doesn't mean people are
> intolerant of one of another ,it only indicate > how some take God's
> business more passionately than others.just yesterday > the > U.S
> presidential hopeful from Salt lake city is trying hard to avoid > questions
> about his Mormonism .why should educated,civilise and democratic > America >
> be worrying itself with a Mormon president ?> the guy's name is Mitt Romney
> .President Kenny dodge his catholic religion > question all during his time
> in office why ?He was forced to make a > statement > that he will not take
> orders from the Vatican .> I am not being intolerant,i just want clarity in
> things that's all.The > ahamadiya English Quran usually have the name
> AHAMADIYA TRANSLATION.if that > is the > case then fine ,no one will get
> deceived.> > Ousman Ceesay wrote:> Suntou,> > What is troubling to most of
> us on this issue is the authoritarian way the > SIC is trying to operate.
> Take this sentence from their press release for > instance:> > "According to
> the release presidential directives have earlier been issued > to the effect
> that there should be no publication or radio programmes in > Islamic matters
> without the approval of the council."> > So the SIC armed with a
> presidential directive is demanding that citizens of > a secular nation get
> permission from them before exercising what is > purportedly an act between
> them and their God. > > Ginny is right to bring up the hypocrisy factor.
> Yahya is using the Quran in > his AIDS cure madness. If you watch the video,
> you will see him rubbing some > kind of ointment on a semi-nude woman with
> one hand, while holding the Quran > in the other.Did you hear a word from
> Bading Drammeh on that issue? However, > when it comes to the Ahmadis
> translating the Quran and announcing it's > availability...well how dare
> they? The president said nobody in the Gambia > can do > that without Bading
> and his mighty Supreme council.> > Meanwhile we have civil rights activist
> like yourself (Suntou) letting your > theological disagreement with the
> Ahmadis cloud your judgment in a blatant > case of religious intolerance.> >
> > SUNTOU TOURAY wrote: Ginny,sorry for the misspelling of your name ,it was
> an > > over-site.Ginny if you are conversant with the advice of the
> messenger of > Islam concerning scholars dealing with rulers you will
> realise that the sic > did > not do any thing wrong by not openly
> confronting our mad president.> > Think back to many years ago what happen
> in Somalia when scholars try to > intervene in matters of politics.many
> scholars were killed by the communist > regime in power and since then
> somalia never have any respite.again when > scholars > try to get involve it
> will the same media people who will start banging on > about our coveted
> secularism . In our day and age Islam is label with all > sorts of names and
> you want yahya to join that bandwagon? if imam fatty for > instance start
> using his sermons to castigate yahya ,he will be locked up > like > hydara
> was locked up.did you heard about Imam Hydara of airport mosque ? > Scholars
> most use Hikma or wisdom in dealing with sitting leaders.we have >
> politicians who can challenge the president using the secular constitutions
> > of our > country ,no problem.to accuse an imam or scholar of being a T
> today is very > easy > .so yes members of the SIC need to do more when it
> comes to advising yahya > ,but since when did yahya start listening to any
> one? yahya knows> he is not suppose do what he is doing .> > on subject of
> visiting the president in state house on days of eid,that was > a tradition
> from the days of jawara .the Christan's too visit the president .> many
> scholars don't get media attention because that is not news,but the > press
> release was a news item that is why it is being made a meal out of.our >
> journalist try to distant them self from religious affairs as much as they >
> possably can ,we are a secular country they say .but in this issue ,human >
> Rights > ,religious rights,constitutional issue,secularism and the rest of
> the Geneva > > > conventions comes into play.the papers can write what they
> want on this one > and they will get an audience.> Ginny Quick wrote:>
> Hello, Suntou, OK, now if members of the SIC are seen openly visiting>
> Jammeh for occasions like Eid, etc., and they don't take the> opportunity to
> advise him on things he is doing wrong (like using> Islam as a prop in his
> "ability to cure HIV/AIDS", just to name one> example), not to mention
> possibly even helping him in all of htis!> And to my knowledge, I've not
> seen any member of the Supreme Islamic> Counsel speaking out against Jammeh!
> Yet at the same time, they want> to excert some kind of "authority" in who
> and who doesn't publish> translations of the Qur'an and other Islamic texts,
> I have to conclude> that they prefer to use sleective authority!> > Now if
> individual members of the council are speaking out against> Jammeh, that can
> only be a good thing, obviously, however I'm not> aware of it!> > > So to my
> mind I'm not "generalizing" as I am not aware of anyone> "speaking out", the
> comment you alluded to was made by someone> quietly, while the SIC's latest
> pronouncements are all over the media,> which leaves me with the impression
> that while some members of the> council probably do speak out against
> Jammeh, they'd rather do it> quietly, so as not to hurt their position. I
> mean, if Jammeh controls> all of the appoints right down to the local
> government councils now,> who's to say he can't just "appoint" people to
> this council?> > And when I'm referring to the "council" I'm referring to
> the whole> council, and when the leader of hte council speaks out, I gather
> that> he's representing *all* of the council, and if he is not, then the>
> members who disagree with him need to voice that and not in the way of>
> haivng others speak for htem. In your example, you did not give a> name, a
> time, or a place, the person you referred to, as far as making> any public
> statements, has not done so! It's only an anecdotal> statement of "well I
> know someone who's a member of the council who> doesn't support Jammeh".
> That is all well and good, but when you have> the "leader" of the SIC making
> a statement, I would assume that he is> speaking for the whole concil,
> unless there is antoher public> statement to the contrary!> > BTW, I love
> how my name gets mis-spelled even though it's right there> in the header of
> my message, but anyway.> > Your points are well-taken, but I am not in total
> agreement iwth them.> > Ginny> > > > On 12/6/07, SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:> >
> HARUNA,THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE.the Christan's have there> >
> council that over see the interest of the Gambian Christians and the >
> Muslims> > also have there own council.the ahamadiya should apply for there
> own > council> > to represent them in matters like this.but they don't wish
> to do that ,they> > intend to operate like a green snake on a green grass
> .if they so wish to > be> > under there own command the constitution allows
> them that privilege.let > them> > apply for there own authority which will
> not inter-fare with the rest of > the> > non-ahamadiya followers.> > as for
> Genny ,the usual accusation at sic is mostly wrong allegations.no> > one is
> perfect.if some members approve jammeh ,there are many who openly> > speak
> against him and his military machinery.lets not discredit our > scholars> >
> for political point.in-fact ,during my stay in the Gambia recently ,a> >
> scholar was ask to refrain from mentioning politics but his answer was >
> ''GOD> > DON'T CARE WHO THE RULER IS ,SINCE THAT RULER HIMSELF IS SUBJECT TO
> GOD'S> > RULE ''.he also made a great speech against the military .he advice
> them to> > stop harassing fellow citizens and any such maltreatment of human
> beings> > warrant god's wrath.so not all scholars are genuine but not all of
> us are> > genuine also.this man is called Bakawsu Fofana .his samon can be
> access on> > www.iladinolong.com .> >> > Haruna Darbo wrote:> > Ladies &
> Gentlemen, Colleagues,> >> > I have followed the discussion on the apparent
> disagreement between the> > Supreme Islamic Council and the Ahmadiyya for
> the latter's translation of> > the> > Qur'an into some of our local
> languages. I must say I was both disappointed> > and> > confounded in some
> of the submissions.> >> > In my opinion, The Ahmadiyya are a missionary
> group like the Islamic > Council> > and the Christian council. They all vie
> for the spiritual life of Gambians.> > Since Gambia is not an Islamic
> republic, this matter seems to me a public> > policy conundrum than anything
> else. Citizens must not war over a public> > policy> > mistake. The policy
> makers ought to make the policy right and consider the> > debilitating
> effect of bad policy decisions on the citizenry.> >> > 1. The Islamic
> Council must not be given the title "The Supreme Islamic> > Council".> >> >
> 2. The Ahmadiyya, like the Christian Brotherhood, and their governing> >
> councils must never come under the purview of the Islamic Council without> >
> their> > acquiescence, and if I have any common sense at all, they will
> never, and> > rightfully so.> >> > 3. To foster religious fraternity and
> harmony, A "Council on Religion" > ought> > to be created with equal
> representatives from all religions, even the> > religions founded or to be
> founded by Gambians.> >> > 4. Gambia is a nation of religious tolerance and
> freedom of religion. It > is> > a bad idea to feign preference for Islam. I
> am a muslim and I prefer the> > Islamic Lifestyle. However, to be a true
> muslim, I must recognize the> > freedoms of> > people of other faiths.
> Someone accepted the Ahmadiyya and Christian> > brotherhoods as missionaries
> in Gambia. They have done a lot of selfless> > good. They> > do not force
> anyone to convert. The Islamic brotherhood must follow the> > example of
> these other religions and remain honest to the divine spirit. It> > is not>
> > decided that Islam is the best religion for anyone's salvation. If we
> give> > the Islamic Council free reign over our spiritual lives at the
> expense of> > other> > spiritual nourishment, we will live to regret it and
> die to proceed to> > hellfire.> >> > Laa Hawala walaa khuwwata, Illa
> Billaah, Li-Aliyyul Atheem.> >> > Haroun Masoud. MQDT Darbo. Al Mutawakkil.
> If Islam is the best religion for> > salvation, I would like Allah,
> subhaanahu wa-ta aala, to take my life > before> > I awake in the morn.> >>
> > Thank you.> >> > Haroun Masoud> >> >> >> >
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