From your reasoning - if "Mugabe had 17 years" - then the land reform began
in 2007? How is that? Yes, your claim has been debunked! The moves started
already in the early 90's and seemed to at least work for a while until
Blair came to power.

And on negotiations, funding had already been agreed on in principle at
Lancaster House. They were not back in 1992 to negotiate but to impliment
what had been agreed on in 1979.

No, your mail came just as I sat in front of my pc during the break in the
match between New Castle and Chelsea and so I had the chance to repond
before the second half. Remember, I don't need to google before putting on
together a response because I at least know what I'm talking about!

Kabir.


On 4/22/07, Cornelius Edward Hamelberg <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>
> You are wholly right
>
> Yes, lies, propaganda and obfuscation is no bed of roses.
> Those who work at the Ministry of Overseas development / old Colonial
> Office studied the Roman Empire…...
>
> I notice that your reply was on my screen almost a soon as I had pushed
> the send button. How did you do that- by anticipating no substance coming
> your way from me?
>
> I am not arguing a position or stuck in one. I am looking for a solution –
> from you, that will be acceptable to Mugabe and those who he will be
> negotiating with.
>
> I am very much interested in what you and others have to say and listen
> very attentively.
> I have not " debunked" anything that I have said previously. OK Mugabe has
> had 17 if you will – years - enough time for three terms as president.
> Of course he has the Constitutional means.
>
> Even at a negotiation you ought not underestimate anyone and when he says
> sign here, read the fine print.
>
> I read the entire 2003 interview when you posted it a week ago and it's
> clear, but the situation has changed since 2003 – the economy has
> deteriorated to the point where Mugabe can go on sticking to his guns until
> the people are pushed into embracing an alternative to their suffering – and
> this means a compromise.
> Did you read this:
>
> http://zimbabweoutpostoftyranny.typepad.com/zimbabwe_outpost_of_tyran/2007/04/towards_a_negot_1.html
>
> We may leave this for a while and see what turns up the week after next?
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date: 2007/04/22 sö PM 03:58:38 CEST
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Ämne: Re: Fwd: Anglican Bishops Rap Sanctions
> >
> > Do you really read anything of substance on the Zimbabwe crisis beyond
> the
> > propaganda?
> >
> > What preparation? ZANU-PF prepared for more than ten years, they were at
> > least more prepared than their British counterparts from the looks of
> > things.
> >
> > The reason why I asked if you read anything of substance on Zimbabwe is
> > statements like this:
> >
> > "...I simply meant that Mugabe has ? and has had the constitutional
> means of
> > passing any kind of legislation to repossess his farms, so what's been
> > stopping him?..."
> >
> > If you bothered to read the interview with David Hasluck who, I REPEAT
> was
> > the Director of The [White] Commercial Farmers Union - or are really up
> to
> > date about the Land Issue as you claim, you would have known the
> following
> > which he repeated in the interview:
> >
> > The issue became politicised and very entrenched. When the 2000
> > constitutional referendum in which the amendments to the constitution
> and
> > the provisions for the government to acquire land failed, the president
> > said, "well, we will continue with our existing constitution".
> >
> > But in April of that year, on the last day of parliament, they amended
> > Provisions Section 16 that dealt with property, and said that rural
> > agricultural land that was compulsorily acquired for resettlement would
> not
> > be paid for. No compensation for the land but the government would pay
> for
> > the improvements on the land. Compensation was the responsibility of the
> > former colonial power, they said. And it comes back to my first point:
> > "Because we believe that this land was taken from our forefathers
> without
> > compensation and it was often violently, and there has been no
> recognition
> > of this by the colonial power, the British must live with this
> > responsibility."
> >
> > Of course if you are not interested in the truth you would not be
> interested
> > in what I have to say. The reason why you are jumping all over the place
> is
> > that you don't have the facts to argue your position.
> >
> > Go back and read before making unfounded claims. First it was Mugabe had
> 27
> > years and should have carried out Land Reform long ago, when that was
> > debunked you claimed he had constitutional means and did not use it, now
> > that too has been debunked! What this tells me is that you are just
> sitting
> > there googling and typing without any clue or perspective of what you
> are
> > talking about.
> >
> > ZANU-PF left no stone unturned in pursuit of a peaceful solution. Why do
> you
> > think all the apologists of imperialism won't touch the issue with a
> > ten-foot pole? Because none can honestly defend what they are claiming,
> thus
> > the lies, propaganda and onfuscation.
> >
> > Kabir.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/22/07, Cornelius Edward Hamelberg <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, your Excellency,
> > > I am not your enemy.
> > >
> > > I would not have flouted any agreements unless 10 years But would have
> > > been a much harder negotiator. It takes a lot of preparation to go to
> the
> > > negotiating table. I don't know if you are in Sweden or Denmark or
> where,
> > > but the Swedes go to negotiation backed by experts who have done their
> > > homework for months: They put a tough team together. Some other
> counties are
> > > less prepared at conferences etc, only getting there - sometimes- get
> there
> > > to read a speech and so on. When Lancaster House talks took place
> there was
> > > a lot of optimism in the air (not learned much from history) and a
> > > willingness to make those concessions - and perhaps you too would
> have,
> > > given such assurances.
> > > Anyway, I'm more interested in what you have to say - the rhetoric- we
> > > have some of that in common, but it doesn't get us very far does it?
> > >
> > > I get Google alerts for Gambia, Sierra Leone, and Zimbabwe among
> others:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://zimbabweoutpostoftyranny.typepad.com/zimbabwe_outpost_of_tyran/2007/04/towards_a_negot_1.html
> > >
> > >
> > > WE are all concerned about the plight of every single Zimbabwean -
> > > including all those who have lost their lives and those battered and
> bruised
> > > ones who still survive, hungry ?..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://vikingpundit.blogspot.com/2007/04/eternal-scapegoat-as-zimbabwe-spirals.html
> > >
> > >
> > > "to lay blame for the whole crisis, squarely at Britain's door" is one
> way
> > > of looking at it. David Hasluck ? if he is one of the bishops, can
> also
> > > blame it all on the devil as they usually do, as if they are not
> sometimes
> > > acting on behalf of the evil one.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://www.acton.org/blog/index.html?/archives/1620-Evangelical-Silence-and-Zimbabwe.html
> > >
> > > You saw how the Zimbabwean government showed its military might to
> > > intimidate those who wanted to go on strike to demand a minimum wage?
> Yes he
> > > can do that these days, mostly to his own, but never take off his
> gloves
> > > when it comes to Downing Street.  He does enjoy repartee and they both
> speak
> > > same language.
> > >
> > > I simply meant that Mugabe has ? and has had the constitutional means
> of
> > > passing any kind of legislation to repossess his farms, so what's been
> > > stopping him?
> > > If Nigeria had found herself in the same situation as Zimbabwe, I
> think
> > > that Sani Abacha would have announced one April Fools Day that all
> toubab
> > > whose lives and farms were under his protection should report to the
> nearest
> > > police station to sign over their illegal possessions or face the dire
> > > consequences ? and Idi Amin would give them the alternative of flying
> or
> > > swimming back home.
> > >
> > > If the very kind and nice Mugabe should have been reluctant to do it,
> he
> > > could have allowed the army to take over, suspend the constitution and
> move
> > > rapidly ? then it's all over?. Maybe  the British government would
> then
> > > compensate their brothers for their losses  and that compensation
> money
> > > could be used to re-possess what is re-possessable, though I suspect
> > > that  black is black I want my country/ land  back means just that.
> > > The above is a little extreme ? and some say that extreme measures are
> > > demanded
> > > I have a booklet in front of me: Nelson Mandela Speeches 1990 (a
> > > Pathfinder publication):
> > >
> http://www.amazon.com/Nelson-Mandela-Speeches-1990-Intensify/dp/0873485955
> > >
> > > Since the end of the 10 years moratorium, Mr. Mugabe has been anxious,
> > > understandably, to finish the work of land reform and re-POSSESSION.
> > > Some of the White farmers have obtained land holdings in far away
> places
> > > like Nigeria:
> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1527207.stm
> > >
> > > So how does ending the sanctions restore some of the land (I know you
> are
> > > going to shout ALL of the LAND) to the people?
> > > South Africa has a programme where by 30% of the land will be
> > > re-distributed over a number of years.
> > > Your fear is that MDC= 10 Downing street ? but I think that all black
> > > Zimbabweans would like to be masters  and if the government could
> enter into
> > > negotiations once again, they could arrive at a solution. As things
> are now,
> > > its seems that they would like to wait as Zimbabwe gets down to her
> knees,
> > > economically almost beyond repair and to a time that Mugabe who is
> holding
> > > the government party together disappears??
> > >
> > > In your opinion, what must be done? Is there any danger (apart from
> the
> > > mosquitoes etc) that we could in time become like the Indians of North
> > > America 9n little pockets off reservation culture?
> > > It could still be called US of A?..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Date: 2007/04/22 sö PM 01:11:57 CEST
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Ämne: Re: Fwd: Anglican Bishops Rap Sanctions
> > > >
> > > > About David Hasluck, I meant to write:
> > > >  He, a patriotic white Zimbabwean who is NOT callous to the plight
> of
> > > the
> > > > poor Black
> > > > Zimbabwean is in no doubt where to lay blame for the whole crisis,
> > > squarely
> > > > at Britain's door.
> > > >
> > > > Kabir.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 4/22/07, Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, so now it's no longer 27 years Mugabe had? I guess you can
> both
> > > add
> > > > > and subtract? Does that not bring us back to the early nineties,
> > > barely ten
> > > > > years after Zimbabwe became independent in 1980? Why would you
> then
> > > claim
> > > > > that you would have solved the land question long before if you
> were
> > > > > president of Zimbabwe?
> > > > >
> > > > > And how would you have done that, by flauting the agreement like
> > > Britain
> > > > > did? And how would you have compensated the thieves? The same
> Britain
> > > that
> > > > > pledged to bankroll the compensation process was the same one that
> > > reneged
> > > > > on their pledge. What options were there left to those liberation
> war
> > > > > veterans, trust in God?
> > > > >
> > > > > Or should the people of Zimbabwe migrate as you suggested earlier?
> To
> > > > > where, the sea?
> > > > >
> > > > > Brutal invasion of "White farms"? Hmmmm, how much more brutal than
> the
> > > > > forebears of these white farmers when the stole the land? It's all
> in
> > > the
> > > > > records for all to consult any time. The war veterans' invasion of
> > > "white
> > > > > farms" was a picnic compared to what their own ancestors went
> through,
> > > > > unless of course Black African lives are of lesser value?
> > > > >
> > > > > David Hasluck, the former director of Zimbabwe's white Commercial
> > > Farmers
> > > > > Union granted an interview<
> > > http://www.swans.com/library/art9/ankomah4.html>to Baffur Ankomah the
> same
> > > day he left office in December 2002. He, a
> > > > > patriotic white Zimbabwean who is callous to the plight of the
> poor
> > > Black
> > > > > Zimbabwean is in no doubt where to lay blame for the whole crisis,
> > > squarely
> > > > > at Britain's door.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kabir.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 4/22/07, Cornelius Edward Hamelberg <
> > > [log in to unmask]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Correct.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Every Amadu, Dick and Harry knows this, as do even my
> non-Zimbabwean
> > > > > > relatives at Oxford.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not only the ten year moratorium, but wasn't there also some
> talk
> > > about
> > > > > > COMPENSATION?
> > > > > > It's during the 10 years period of grace that preparations are
> made.
> > > > > > There are ways of measuring time, e.g. the Sabbath begins at a
> > > certain
> > > > > > time (the candles are lit 18 minutes before sunset and the
> Sabbath
> > > ends at a
> > > > > > certain time (when the stars come out to shine) and the people
> of
> > > Accra and
> > > > > > London know GMT.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Lancaster+House+agreement+%3A+Compensation&btnG=Search&meta=
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ten years were up a long time ago, but perhaps the kind and
> > > patient
> > > > > > Mugabe (speaks good English and likes to discuss) hasn't taken
> the
> > > right
> > > > > > kind of action up till today. Why? Perhaps like Saddam he is
> afraid
> > > of
> > > > > > Toubaba and that's why he has not hanged a few and keeps on
> talking,
> > > saying
> > > > > > things like" Blair keep your England, and let me keep my
> Zimbabwe"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/robertmuga361688.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mr. Blair is keeping his England sure enough and will be keeping
> it
> > > even
> > > > > > after the next Prime Minister (Gordon Brown?) takes over Her
> > > Majesty's
> > > > > > Government.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=MUgabe%20quotes
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And the seminar in Stockholm, with Dr. Adebayo Olukoshi and some
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > Zimbabwe Embassy staff in Stockholm went through the history
> soon
> > > after the
> > > > > > first savage attacks on the white farmers started. We dwelt on
> the
> > > Lancaster
> > > > > > House Agreement for some time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the actual time of the Lancaster House talks, some of those
> of
> > > who
> > > > > > are VERY interested in this matter were on the spot 10th
> September
> > > 1979-10th
> > > > > > December 1979
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_Zimbabwe
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.zwnews.com/Lancasterhouse.doc
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.zwnews.com/issuefull.cfm?ArticleID=6623
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm sure that no Uncle Tom bishop supports the bashing that
> Mugabe
> > > says
> > > > > > Morgan Tsvangirai deserved.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About South Africa, just around that time, Shehu Shagari
> announced
> > > at
> > > > > > the UN, that Nigeria would use oil as a weapon to fight
> Apartheid. I
> > > arrived
> > > > > > in Nigeria soon thereafter and stayed for 42 months ? met a
> couple
> > > of ANC
> > > > > > there?..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > United we stand, divided we fall.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > > Date: 2007/04/22 sö AM 02:59:22 CEST
> > > > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > > Ämne: Re: Fwd: Anglican Bishops Rap Sanctions
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And anybody who cared to do their home work before speaking
> onthis
> > > > > > > issue would know that there was a clause in the Lancaster
> House
> > > > > > Agreements
> > > > > > > that did not allow the Zimbabwe government to embark on Land
> > > > > > Redistribution
> > > > > > > until at least ten years had elapsed after the signing of the
> > > > > > agreement. The
> > > > > > > government of Zimbabwe commenced its moves towards Land Reform
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > early
> > > > > > > 1990s. They honoured what they appended their signatures to!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kabir.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 4/22/07, Cornelius Edward Hamelberg <
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As one of our  brothers observed, "The pursuit of
> > > > > > > > knowledge requires being exposed to various sources to
> enable
> > > one to
> > > > > > > > make an informed choice." It's a good maxim to follow.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The question now facing all is, when are sanctions legal and
> > > when
> > > > > > can they
> > > > > > > > be said to be illegal? As always ? and this includes the
> DEBATES
> > > > > > that took
> > > > > > > > place about sanctions on South Africa as to whether the
> > > sanctions
> > > > > > would not
> > > > > > > > have more of a crippling effect on the already impoverished
> > > black
> > > > > > population
> > > > > > > > than on the White power elite in South Africa.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=+sanctions+on+Zimbabwe
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The land in question is situated in Africa, in Zimbabwe, and
> > > > > > Zimbabwe is a
> > > > > > > > sovereign state ? has been for the past 27 years, during
> which
> > > time
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > problem could have been solved ? if I were president it
> would
> > > > > > certainly have
> > > > > > > > been solved. Absolutely.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
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