Brad,

Then what do you think "cloud of witnesses" means?  I don't think our loved 
ones are the focus of our faith, and I don't continuallly dwell on their 
watching over us.  However, God being the focus doesn't preclude  loved ones 
watching and even cheering us on in the race.

I also resent the implication that your approach is truth and mine is based 
on emotion.  I've studied the context of that scripture before, and that's 
always been my interpretation and that of many others.

JulieMelton
visit me at
www.heart-and-music.com
or subscribe to my podcast at
http://feed.feedburner.com/hmradio
Keep smiling!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MV" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: wondering.


> Chapter and verse are for our benefit and so reading "through" the
> beginning  of Chapter 12, starting back in Chapter 11 we have...
>
>
> By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the
> Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned. By faith the walls of 
> Jericho
> fell down after they were encircled for seven days. By faith the harlot
> Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received
> the spies with peace. And what more shall I say? For the time would fail 
> me
> to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and
> Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked
> righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched 
> the
> violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made
> strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the
> aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were
> tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better
> resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and
> of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were
> tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and
> goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented-- of whom the world was
> not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of
> the earth. And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith,
> did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us,
> that they should not be made perfect apart from us. Therefore we also,
> since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside
> every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with
> endurance the race that is set before us,  looking unto Jesus, the author
> and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured
> the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the
> throne of God.
>
> Seems to me a laundry list of examples of peoples trials and triumphs were
> listed stating they did not receive the promise   but God  indeed had
> something better in mind for us, and the "cloud of witnesses" is a point 
> of
> historical reference on which we can look upon knowing we, although may
> endure hardship, will indeed receive the promise.  Also note the early 
> list
> of events and how they all mention they had "faith", it didn't say they
> were being comforted by the watchful eye of those who earlier passed on.
> Faith I think we can safely presume is that in and from God. To me taking
> those three words and stretching it to be  watchful eyes from above is
> unhealthy. If you notice the continuance shows Jesus to be the focus of 
> our
> faith and and not those who have gone before us. I'd have to see 
> supporting
> Scripture to see this. I think we have to look at it from God's 
> perspective
> as much as we possibly can. He is our focus, our point of faith and
> comfort, our joy, our peace and not those we loved in this world who have
> passed on. That doesn't mean we stop looking on their memory as a loving
> thing, or that we don't find our selves changed by them or that they stop
> living   in our hearts, but I'm not sure God would approve of them being a
> point of comfort,  peace, thinking they are watching over us in stead or
> along with him, or even the thought they take part in our aid here? I'm
> sorry, I can not respect that thought. It is nice to think, to help make
> our emotional shortcomings easier to deal with, but that doesn't make it
> truth. I'd like to see more Scripture reference on this please.
>
> Brad
>