If we can abandon the free gift how can salvation be secure.  If one sins
and is out of the state of grace God's grace affords and dies how can one
enter heaven as God hates sin.  I won't even get in to the Catholic stand on
this matter as I got enough opposing e-mail from my little missives
concerning Islam.  Piece to you all.
----- Original Message -----
From: April Reisinger <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Poor Judas


> Dear Angel,
>
> I also am a Baptist and I believe that God's salvation is secure.  I do
> believe, however, that we can choose to abandon the free gift.  If we do
> that, it is not God who has changed, but we who have--which would wonder
me
> to the question did we ever get saved in the first place?
>
> April
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:51 AM
> Subject: Re: Poor Judas
>
>
> > It truly is a puzzler isn't it.  I guess that sort of screws up the idea
> > of
> > being eternally save doesn't it.  My sister is a Baptist and that is
what
> > she believes.  If Jesus knew Judas would never attain salvation why then
> > did
> > he make him a disciple in the first place.  God certainly could have
sent
> > him help during his depression to cause him to live and see the rising
of
> > Our Lord and receive salvation?  Perhaps he was predestined as was the
> > Jesus' mother for this fate.  She was predestined after all.  However as
> > they didn't fully realize their positions in the greater scheme of
things,
> > well, perhaps Mary did, we don't understand our own predestony.  Another
> > question to ponder.  If Judas was predestined to fall and to fail then
he
> > truly had no choice which causes him to even be a more sorrowful
> > character.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: MV <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:43 AM
> > Subject: Poor Judas
> >
> >
> >> Angel,
> >>
> >> I agree we are predestined to use our free will as we both made mention
> >> in
> >> an earlier post and I'm not even Catholic *big cheezy smile*, actually
> >> I'm
> >> probably a denominational mutt having grown up Lutheran, married in a
> >> Moravian church, served in a couple non-denominational churches, as
well
> > as
> >> one inter-denominational church, recently came from a Baptist church
and
> >> now attending an Assembly of God that seems to have balance apart from
> >> other O G churches I'll not make mention here. I've moved a few times
in
> > my
> >> life which caused me to look about and search out churches making a
> >> difference and teaching the word. Anyway that wasn't my point of this
> > email
> >> I guess I just realized I guess I'm a freewiller as to grasping the
Word
> >> for what it is and not so much a denominational marriage, which there
is
> >> nothing wrong with that, I guess I just hadn't taken that road. Anyway
My
> >> real point is, actually there are two, are...
> >>
> >> Point #1, you mentioned about we are predestined to freewill. But also
> > said...
> >>
> >> "This is why I have always felt sorry for Judas.  He was the one God
had
> >> planned to betray Jesus."
> >>
> >> Are you saying he was predestined but we're not? I think I had wondered
> >> this here before on list that if Judas hadn't chose to follow through,
> >> would someone else have stepped up?  I'm thinking of another person at
a
> >> critical time of history who had a choice. Ester when her uncle told
her
> >> upon her unwillingness to plead to the king on behalf of the Jews...
> >> "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will
arise
> >> for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will
> >> perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a
> > time
> >> as this?"-- Ester 4:14
> >>
> >> So it appears as Ester had a choice and God would see to it this thing
> >> would be accomplished one way or the other. Such could also be said for
> >> Judas I wonder.
> >>
> >> Point #2 is  I always had questioned whether or not Judas was actually
a
> >> gonner spiritually. I mean it seemed unfair, especially if he was
somehow
> >> destined to be the trigger man of Christ's crucifixion. If you look he
> > felt
> >> remorse, gave the 30 pieces of silver back and guilt took over so much
so
> >> he hung himself. I had, in my thoughts,  questioned preachers when they
> >> mentioned Judas is in hell for his betrayal. To me it seemed he must
have
> >> had a first rate relationship with Christ to be  among the twelve, and
> > with
> >> all who were after Christ for healing folks right under their noses, on
> > the
> >> Sabbath yet, they had good reason to go after him without a betray or
so
> >> that will be another question for me to wonder. However, after reading
> >> and
> >> looking up some definitions of  the Scripture in Strong's Greek/Hebrew,
I
> >> see that Judas indeed, by Jesus' words  is in fact a gonner. Jesus
> >> said...
> >>
> >> "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have
> >> given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son
of
> >> perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." --John 17:12
> >>
> >> Looking up the word parish in the original it is...
> >>
> >> NT:622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639;
> >> to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or
> > figuratively:
> >> KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
> >>
> >> Looking up the word "perdition" it is defined...
> >> NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622;
> >> ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):
> >> KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish,
> > pernicious
> >> ways, waste.
> >>
> >> I suppose the latter word could be stretched as to say he only died
> >> physically as that is one of it's definitions but that coupled with
> >> the  prior word being "fully" destroyed, and the fact the two words are
> >> connected as a derivative, gives connotation Judas won't be among those
> >> we
> >> see in eternity with God. It is difficult to see how a man who could
walk
> >> with Christ as his disciple has fallen, and then look at our own lives
> >> and
> >> consider we will not fall eternally despite our sin and levels of
> >> betrayal
> >> if we accept, believe and trust in Christ. The one guy who you'd expect
> >> to  have the pardon of pardons, especially if this was a destined
> >> position
> >> for him somehow, would be Judas. His very part in history provided the
> >> segue for all mankind to have eternal life despite sin. It is
definitely
> >> perplexing to me.
> >>
> >> Brad
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Brad
> >>
> >>    Nothing else ruins the truth like stretching it
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >