but... here's a question. was judas *saved* in the first place?
Jen and MAMA-Star
"Friends are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble
remembering how to fly."
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AIM: jenibear1998
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----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: Poor Judas
> It truly is a puzzler isn't it. I guess that sort of screws up the idea
> of
> being eternally save doesn't it. My sister is a Baptist and that is what
> she believes. If Jesus knew Judas would never attain salvation why then
> did
> he make him a disciple in the first place. God certainly could have sent
> him help during his depression to cause him to live and see the rising of
> Our Lord and receive salvation? Perhaps he was predestined as was the
> Jesus' mother for this fate. She was predestined after all. However as
> they didn't fully realize their positions in the greater scheme of things,
> well, perhaps Mary did, we don't understand our own predestony. Another
> question to ponder. If Judas was predestined to fall and to fail then he
> truly had no choice which causes him to even be a more sorrowful
> character.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: MV <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:43 AM
> Subject: Poor Judas
>
>
>> Angel,
>>
>> I agree we are predestined to use our free will as we both made mention
>> in
>> an earlier post and I'm not even Catholic *big cheezy smile*, actually
>> I'm
>> probably a denominational mutt having grown up Lutheran, married in a
>> Moravian church, served in a couple non-denominational churches, as well
> as
>> one inter-denominational church, recently came from a Baptist church and
>> now attending an Assembly of God that seems to have balance apart from
>> other O G churches I'll not make mention here. I've moved a few times in
> my
>> life which caused me to look about and search out churches making a
>> difference and teaching the word. Anyway that wasn't my point of this
> email
>> I guess I just realized I guess I'm a freewiller as to grasping the Word
>> for what it is and not so much a denominational marriage, which there is
>> nothing wrong with that, I guess I just hadn't taken that road. Anyway My
>> real point is, actually there are two, are...
>>
>> Point #1, you mentioned about we are predestined to freewill. But also
> said...
>>
>> "This is why I have always felt sorry for Judas. He was the one God had
>> planned to betray Jesus."
>>
>> Are you saying he was predestined but we're not? I think I had wondered
>> this here before on list that if Judas hadn't chose to follow through,
>> would someone else have stepped up? I'm thinking of another person at a
>> critical time of history who had a choice. Ester when her uncle told her
>> upon her unwillingness to plead to the king on behalf of the Jews...
>> "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise
>> for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will
>> perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a
> time
>> as this?"-- Ester 4:14
>>
>> So it appears as Ester had a choice and God would see to it this thing
>> would be accomplished one way or the other. Such could also be said for
>> Judas I wonder.
>>
>> Point #2 is I always had questioned whether or not Judas was actually a
>> gonner spiritually. I mean it seemed unfair, especially if he was somehow
>> destined to be the trigger man of Christ's crucifixion. If you look he
> felt
>> remorse, gave the 30 pieces of silver back and guilt took over so much so
>> he hung himself. I had, in my thoughts, questioned preachers when they
>> mentioned Judas is in hell for his betrayal. To me it seemed he must have
>> had a first rate relationship with Christ to be among the twelve, and
> with
>> all who were after Christ for healing folks right under their noses, on
> the
>> Sabbath yet, they had good reason to go after him without a betray or so
>> that will be another question for me to wonder. However, after reading
>> and
>> looking up some definitions of the Scripture in Strong's Greek/Hebrew, I
>> see that Judas indeed, by Jesus' words is in fact a gonner. Jesus
>> said...
>>
>> "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have
>> given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of
>> perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." --John 17:12
>>
>> Looking up the word parish in the original it is...
>>
>> NT:622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639;
>> to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or
> figuratively:
>> KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
>>
>> Looking up the word "perdition" it is defined...
>> NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622;
>> ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):
>> KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish,
> pernicious
>> ways, waste.
>>
>> I suppose the latter word could be stretched as to say he only died
>> physically as that is one of it's definitions but that coupled with
>> the prior word being "fully" destroyed, and the fact the two words are
>> connected as a derivative, gives connotation Judas won't be among those
>> we
>> see in eternity with God. It is difficult to see how a man who could walk
>> with Christ as his disciple has fallen, and then look at our own lives
>> and
>> consider we will not fall eternally despite our sin and levels of
>> betrayal
>> if we accept, believe and trust in Christ. The one guy who you'd expect
>> to have the pardon of pardons, especially if this was a destined
>> position
>> for him somehow, would be Judas. His very part in history provided the
>> segue for all mankind to have eternal life despite sin. It is definitely
>> perplexing to me.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> Nothing else ruins the truth like stretching it
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