Angel,

I agree we are predestined to use our free will as we both made mention in 
an earlier post and I'm not even Catholic *big cheezy smile*, actually I'm 
probably a denominational mutt having grown up Lutheran, married in a 
Moravian church, served in a couple non-denominational churches, as well as 
one inter-denominational church, recently came from a Baptist church and 
now attending an Assembly of God that seems to have balance apart from 
other O G churches I'll not make mention here. I've moved a few times in my 
life which caused me to look about and search out churches making a 
difference and teaching the word. Anyway that wasn't my point of this email 
I guess I just realized I guess I'm a freewiller as to grasping the Word 
for what it is and not so much a denominational marriage, which there is 
nothing wrong with that, I guess I just hadn't taken that road. Anyway My 
real point is, actually there are two, are...

Point #1, you mentioned about we are predestined to freewill. But also said...

"This is why I have always felt sorry for Judas.  He was the one God had 
planned to betray Jesus."

Are you saying he was predestined but we're not? I think I had wondered 
this here before on list that if Judas hadn't chose to follow through, 
would someone else have stepped up?  I'm thinking of another person at a 
critical time of history who had a choice. Ester when her uncle told her 
upon her unwillingness to plead to the king on behalf of the Jews...
"For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise 
for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will 
perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time 
as this?"-- Ester 4:14

So it appears as Ester had a choice and God would see to it this thing 
would be accomplished one way or the other. Such could also be said for 
Judas I wonder.

Point #2 is  I always had questioned whether or not Judas was actually a 
gonner spiritually. I mean it seemed unfair, especially if he was somehow 
destined to be the trigger man of Christ's crucifixion. If you look he felt 
remorse, gave the 30 pieces of silver back and guilt took over so much so 
he hung himself. I had, in my thoughts,  questioned preachers when they 
mentioned Judas is in hell for his betrayal. To me it seemed he must have 
had a first rate relationship with Christ to be  among the twelve, and with 
all who were after Christ for healing folks right under their noses, on the 
Sabbath yet, they had good reason to go after him without a betray or so 
that will be another question for me to wonder. However, after reading and 
looking up some definitions of  the Scripture in Strong's Greek/Hebrew, I 
see that Judas indeed, by Jesus' words  is in fact a gonner. Jesus said...

"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have 
given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of 
perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." --John 17:12

Looking up the word parish in the original it is...

NT:622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639;
to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:
KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Looking up the word "perdition" it is defined...
NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622;
ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):
KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious 
ways, waste.

I suppose the latter word could be stretched as to say he only died 
physically as that is one of it's definitions but that coupled with 
the  prior word being "fully" destroyed, and the fact the two words are 
connected as a derivative, gives connotation Judas won't be among those we 
see in eternity with God. It is difficult to see how a man who could walk 
with Christ as his disciple has fallen, and then look at our own lives and 
consider we will not fall eternally despite our sin and levels of betrayal 
if we accept, believe and trust in Christ. The one guy who you'd expect 
to  have the pardon of pardons, especially if this was a destined position 
for him somehow, would be Judas. His very part in history provided the 
segue for all mankind to have eternal life despite sin. It is definitely 
perplexing to me.

Brad



Brad

   Nothing else ruins the truth like stretching it