This is an interesting, complex and puzzling topic.

mark wilson:
> 72 is not a problem, as a matter of fact, I envy you
> for having such low numbers.  There are several guys
> over on the calorie restriction society list who have
> fasting numbers in the 70's, and they seem to be doing
> just fine.

I noticed that Website I cited reports that Bernstein thinks even the random
glucose shouldn't go above 100. My random glucose was 127 once, after I had
my occasional treat of some sucrose-sweetened mints about an hour before the
test. That tells me that I should try to avoid sweets even more than I do.
What has your random glucose been like?

[log in to unmask]: 
> Todd > Stress definitely affects BG, because the stress hormone
> cortisol triggers gluconeogenesis.
> 
> As does consuming more than a moderate amount of protein.
> See Rosedale.
> 

With all the discussion of Rosedale and gluconeogenesis (what a mouthful!
:-) ) I finally looked into his views some more on the Web and found that
Rosedale and Michael Eades used to work in the same practice and have
similar views, but Eades disagrees with Rosedale about protein:

	"Rosedale and I have a difference of opinion on the issue I suppose.
In fact he and I are going to debate the how-much-protein-is-enough issue in
a public forum at the American Society of Bariatric Physicians national
meeting this October in San Diego. I'll keep you posted as I put together my
material because the issue isn't a simple one that can be explained in a
sentence or two. And there is a big difference in how much protein is
required on a low-carb diet verses a high-carb diet.

Best-

MRE"

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=259


I don't know how the debate turned out.

My own experience seems to jibe more with Eade's Protein-Power approach than
with Rosedale's limit-protein approach. I think I probably eat a high
proportion of meat protein--probably more than Rosedale recommends--and my
FBG is quite low, but I could be an anomaly.

Mark, given the review that Oliva provided a link to, which argues that
saturated fat impairs insulin sensitivity (not that I'm necessarily agreeing
with that claim), and given that you seem to consume a lot of saturated fat,
I'm curious as to whether the four or five others also were consuming large
amounts of saturated fat. Do you know? Do you know if they all have more
body fat than a thin Paleo dieter like Ray Audette? Have you noticed any
similarities between the people with high FBG? Trying to think of possible
connections.

[Note: I hope the following doesn't start an argument about saturated fat,
as I have noticed those discussions tend to become rather heated. I don't
have a dog in that hunt and it wouldn't bother me whether some saturated
fatty acids (SFA's) turned out to be unhealthful or healthy.]

I have been skeptical of the claims that saturated fat is very unhealthy,
but I'm wondering if it could be a problem for some people, while not a
problem for others. I don't eat a lot of saturated fat, largely because I
don't like it (not because I buy into all the anti-SFA dogma), and my
fasting glucose is very low (72 at last check) and within Bernstein's
"optimal" range. It seems that some of the Paleo dieters (such as Mark) and
low-carb/high-fat dieters (such as "Bear" Stanley) who have been mentioned
as having persistently high blood sugar eat lots of saturated fat. There are
the exceptions of Jim (Wildtrout) and Adrienne, whose reported FBG (in the
60's) is just the opposite and at a level that is apparently considered too
low by even Dr. Bernstein.

I know that some Paleo dieters have reported that high consumption of
saturated fat raises their total cholesterol level (and presumably their
LDL, though I haven't seen that mentioned specifically), including one I
know personally, but others do not experience this. Maybe saturated fat
could have a similar effect on FBG--raising that of some but not affecting
others? Mark beat me to the punch and considered the same possibility...

Mark:
> I went from the low 80's to the high 90's while eating
> low carb paleo. Makes you wonder if the whole
> saturated fat / IR theory may be true for some
> people??

Have any of the high-FBG Paleo dieters tried reducing their SFA levels? I
don't know whether this would work, but it is an interesting question. 

Another possible factor is level omega-3 and -6 fats, irrespective of
saturated fat levels. Since the omega-3 and -6 fats allegedly improve
insulin sensitivity, could it be that the high-FBG Paleo dieters are
consuming a small amount or small relative proportion of these fats? Or
maybe the key is the balance (the ratio of SFA's to omega-3's), as the
review that Oliva cited suggests.

I also wonder if body fat has something to do with it. I am very lean, as is
Ray Audette (though neither one of us restricts our calories). I have low
blood sugar and Ray got his under control. I'm also guessing that the
calorie-restriction people with low FBG levels that Todd mentioned are quite
lean. Maybe Paleo dieters who have higher glucose scores tend to have more
body fat? Just speculating about possible answers to this puzzling quandary.
The study that Oliva posted a link to seems to back this low body fat
hypothesis: "Amelioration of diet-induced diabetes mellitus by removal of
visceral fat,"
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/content/abstract/191/3/699.

Mark
> I'm almost positive I'm bleow 120 grams of protein,
> but I'll check it out.

I don't notice any consistent dietary factor among all of the people with
high FBG. It's quite a puzzle indeed. It sounds like what worked for Jim and
Adrienne has not worked for Mark. My current best guess is that
higher-than-optimal body fat is the main factor behind the
higher-than-optimal FBG levels.

Todd Moody:
> Yes, that was "Bear" Stanley Owsley
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owsley_Stanley), who has followed a 
> meat-only diet (but no pork!) since 1959.

Actually, Owsley Stanley reportedly ate cheese too, so technically he ate an
all-animal-food diet rather than a meat-only diet.

> and the example of Bear and others is proof that mere avoidance of
> carbohydrates and/or adherence to strict paleo diet doesn't 
> automatically correct it.

Except that Bear apparently did not adhere to a Paleo diet, given his
regular cheese consumption, and poor results from a very low-carb, non-Paleo
diet do not necessarily exclude the possibility of better results from a
strict Paleo diet.

Adrienne Smith:
> ... I wallow in saturated fat (meat fats,
> lard and
> coconut oil) and my fasting glucose is in the 60s.  

60's? That certainly brings into question the alleged effect of saturated
fat on raising fasting glucose, at least for some people, but isn't a FBG in
the 60's considered suboptimal (hypoglycemia)? Do you have a reference that
disputes the alleged claim by Dr. Bernstein that 70-85 is the optimal range
(I currently can't even find Bernstein himself mentioning the 70
figure--only the 85)? The guy who posted that range on the Web claimed that
70 is the best figure for the average person, which seems strange given the
70-85 range. I wonder how 70 could be the best of all and 69 unhealthy?
Seems like the best number should be in the middle of an optimal range.
Anyone have more info on this?

> Also, if
> saturated fat within a
> low carb diet context  impaired the action of insulin -- then 
> why do diabetics 
> placed on high saturated fat, low carb, moderate protein 
> regimes see their 
> glucose improve??  

Some do, but some apparently don't, based on this thread. The question we're
trying to answer is, why do some people on low-carb, high-fat diets continue
to exhibit high fasting blood glucose?

> A diabetic should cut out the fruit at breakfast time if he/she 
> notices the "Dawn Phenomenon" (higher blood glucose levels on waking 
> than before going to
> bed). 
> The small meal in the evening will ensure that blood glucose 
> overnight and in 
> early morning does not go too high"

Have the high-FBG people here tried the small evening meal advice? From what
Mark said it doesn't sound like he eats much fruit for breakfast:

mark wilson:
>  My diet lately,
>  has been based around boneless beef ribs because
> that's the fattiest cut I can get at my local market.
> I also eat chicken drum sticks, and thighs.  Salads
> with a dressing I make made up of bacon grease, olive
> oil, and red wine vineger.  A few times a week I eat a
> pound bag of spinich cooked up with a package of
> nitrate free bacon.  Most mornings,  I'll make a
> smoothie with raw eggs, coconut milk, raw chocolate
> powder, and a bit of stevia.  Boiled, and fried eggs,
> tons of avocados.

The red wine vinegar is not considered Paleo and I don't know what the
effects of stevia are on FBG, but neither one seems sufficient to explain
chronically high FBG and vinegar has a very low glycemic index.