I didn't think we were suppose to discuss doctrinal issues. It seemed when
I tried to explain the reasons for believing in why we pray to saints, and
why bingo wasn't necessarily a bad thing I and Karin were told not to
discuss things like that but when you discuss forgiveness and it's
significance regarding salvation that is fine? If Karin and I are not
allowed to discuss matters of doctrine why are you? I am not trying to be
impertinent here but am just trying to understand the difference.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Conditional forgiveness??
> John,
>
> That was my thought, salvation doesn't equate forgiveness of trespasses,
> at least in this context. Therefore indeed, our lack of forgiving,
> produces our trespasses to not be dealt with. Granted, scripture is
> interpreted by scripture. That is verses are taken first in context, and
> also flavored by the intent of other scripture and not strictly by the
> printed word. However, the statement Jesus made of forgiving others or
> our issues won't be forgiven, is pretty blatantly straightforward. So for
> it to be true, salvation mustn't be applied in this flavor of trespass or
> else it either makes Jesus a liar or other parts of scripture
> contradictory. The Word is kind of like a bobsled at times. We begin our
> trek down the middle of the runway, and as the Word guides us as the walls
> of the bobsled chute, we are pushed in a direction and when we read
> another precept that pushes back to God's will in another area, it is
> again like riding the wall of another turn in the runway. The only
> difference is, it is the runway, or God's Word that is actually straight,
> and it is our path that zig zags about as we tend to bobble about in life.
>
> Brad
>
>
> on 08:22 PM 7/28/2005, John Schwery said:
> Brad, I believe that what our Lord said is talking about our
> fellowship with him. I don't equate forgiveness with salvation. I
> believe we can be saved and undealt with sin. I don't believe that
> this state continues for years. Yes, it is one of those apparent
> contradictions that takes study to understand.
>
> earlier, Brad D, wrote:
> >How do we explain Jesus explanation of if we do not forgive other's
> sins
> >against us, he will not forgive ours? And does forgiveness equate
> >salvation? Or can we be saved and yet have unforgiven sins to be dealt
> >with? Curious to the apparent contradiction in scripture then.
> >
> >Brad
> >
> >on 06:06 PM 7/28/2005, John Schwery said:
> >I believe that forgiveness is unconditional in that it does not break
> >our relationship with God. Unconfessed sin can break our fellowship
> >with Him, however. I believe that if anyone adds anything to
> >salvation, then, grace is no longer grace, but works have been added,
> >perverting the gospel. This doesn't mean that I believe that we can
> >sin and get away with it, but sin does not break our relationship
> >with Him. If it does, then, all of us are toast. Notice that in
> >Psalm 51, David did not say to the Lord, restore unto me Thy
> >salvation, but restore unto me, the Joy of Thy salvation. When our
> >fellowship is broken with the Lord, we no longer have that peace that
> >passes all understanding or the joy of the Lord.
> >
> >earlier, Vinny Samarco, wrote:
> > >Hi Brad,
> > >I am glad you brought this point up. I have heard of too many
> >ministries
> > >who make God out to be this spineless lovy-dovey blob that will let
> >everyone
> > >do anything, and require absolutely nothing from them. This is truly
> a
> > >perversion of the gospel. I think most
> > >Christians would be totally shocked if they would ever do a complete
> >study
> > >on all the if's and buts in the bible. They would see that after
> Jesus
> > >reveals himself to us, forgives our sins, etc. there are some
> >requirements
> > >that The Lord requires of all his people. I'm not talking about
> > >self-imposed works, I am talking about biblical requirements.
> > >Vinny
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 5:50 AM
> > >Subject: Conditional forgiveness??
> > >
> > >
> > > > "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father
> will
> >also
> > > > forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
> neither
> >will
> > > > your Father forgive your trespasses."-- Matthew 6:14-15
> > > >
> > > > This Jesus taught his disciples, believers, not those who opposed
> his
> > > > message; purpose; and existence. These words just after
> instructing
> >them
> > > > how to pray, and continued after these verses to instruct them on
> >conduct
> > > > and attitudes. Despite what we've come to know as "The Lord's
> Prayer"
> > > > stating "and forgive us our trespass as we forgive those who
> trespass
> > > > against us", Jesus felt that precept needing to be blatantly noted
> >after
> > > > the prayer. We indeed find freedom in forgiving others, but as
> >with the
> > > > message of the Word, "it is not about us", it in this case is
> about
> >giving
> > > > grace to others, just as we've received grace unto ourselves. God
> >knows
> > > > that we have enough trouble with that concept, that he holds our
> > > > forgiveness randsome. This indeed sounds conditional to me.
> > > >
> > > > Brad
> > > >
> >
> >John
>
> John
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