Paul, verse 11 is part of the issue.  What bothers me is that in most
nativity scenes, the wise men are shown to be at His birth.  I believe this
to be inaccurate, and if one studies Matthew 2, I believe one will find
that the wise men didn't come until a couple of years later.  By then, our
Lord was no longer a bate, but a child, and no longer in a stable, but in a
house.  I don't believe this is pointless conjecture.

At 10:15 AM 12/27/03 -0500, you wrote:
>I was referring to Matthew 2:11, John.  Is that the verse you have a problem
>with?  Setting aside semantics about "wise men" and "gifts", unless JESUS
>was older than 4 or 5 (which would be tough to prove) I think he still
>qualified as a baby.  So I don't get your point.  Not that it makes any
>difference to me.  I think that kind of thing leads just to pointless
>conjecture.
>
>Paul
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Schwery" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 7:01 PM
>Subject: Re: Wise Men
>
>
> > Paul, I don't believe that the wise men brought gifts to Jesus when he was
> > a baby.  I don't believe that they showed up for a couple of years or so.
> >
> > At 08:25 AM 12/26/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Okay, so we all know that the real meaning of Christmas is the Gift of
>JESUS
> > >and that He gave Himself for us.  But let's not forget that the wise men
> > >brought gifts to Baby JESUS.  And it's a wise thing to give gifts to
> > >Italians, too.  So, in the Spirit of gift-giving, let's hear what
>everyone's
> > >favorite gifts they got this year are.  And the worst gifts.  Okay, you
>can
> > >say "the worst gifts ever" so people won't know it was something you got
> > >this year and track you down.  Smile.  Let's hear it, folks, especially
>from
> > >those of you who are returning things today.  You know who you are.
> > >
> > >My favorite gift is a ceramic cookie jar that is a lifesize yellow lab
> > >puppy.  My friends out west sent it, knowing I love yellow labs and had
> > >planned on getting one (that was what I thought my last dog was when I
>got
> > >her from the pound, but it turned out she was a mutt and didn't grow at
>all,
> > >but shed as much hair as two huge yellow labs.  Smile.)  But I had mixed
> > >emotions about it because I gave the dog away last year when I got sick
>and
> > >a friend of a friend asked if she could have her for her children.  Since
> > >the dog was alone all day while I was at work I gave her to them.  So I
>did
> > >have an emotional moment when first opening this gift since it reminded
>me
> > >so much of my dog (whom I miss very much)....well, she's not "my" dog
> > >anymore.  Anyway, I was going to give the cookie jar to them but now am
> > >trying to talk myself out of it since it looks so good on my hearth and I
> > >keep telling myself "It doesn't look THAT much like your dog, after all,
>and
> > >the small kids will probably break it anyway and hurt themselves!"
> > >
> > >Be that as it may, let's hear it about the best and worst of gifts that
>you
> > >all got!
> > >
> > >Greedy So and So Lion Holding Onto The Cookie Jar Even Though It's Empty
> >
> > John
> >
> > I hate a quarrel because it interrupts an argument. --
> > Gilbert Keith Chesterton<*>

John

You raise your voice when you should reinforce your
argument. -- Dr. Samuel Johnson<*>