Brad,  Regarding the primary interpretation of grafting in Romans 11, I
will have to agree with John.  Paul is warning Gentiles not to assume an
attitude of arrogance.  Surely this is applicable to individuals since
obviously it is the individual who assumes the attitude, in this case, a
Gentile.  Romans 9, 10 and 11 are all dealing with Israel's past, present
and future, and, they will be grafted into the olive tree again if
Scripture has any thing to say about it.  And, there will be Gentile
nations who will be saved, made up of individuals, and existing in the
millennial reign of Christ also.

If we use this passage with regard to our salvation and is perminence or
lack thereof, it would seem to me that we are making God very capricious
and one may or may not lose his salvation on a whim.  Just how many works
must one perform to maintain his or her salvation?  Where does salvation,
or saving faith come from in the first place?  "For by grace you are saved
by faith and that not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God not of
works lest any man should boast."  And yes, "We are His workmanship
created in Christ Jesus unto good works that we should walk in them."
Again, I would ask, How many sins does it take to cancel out good works?
Will one sin cost us our salvation? And which one would that be?
Furthermore, since we are given the "earnest" or "pledge" of the Holy
Spirit at salvation, this would mean that should we be cast into hell that
the part of the Holy Spirit would go with us and suffer eternal damnation.
I thought that Christ took care of all that at Calvary -- past, present
and future.  God saved us, gave us faith as a gift, knowing that we would
fail Him to one degree or another in this world--even as believers.  It is
sad to say that their are some believers who presume upon the grace of
God, however, there is a price to be paid in this life and with respect to
the rewards recieved in the future.  Hopefully each one of us will serve
God for the right reasons with the right spiritual attitude.  God does
look upon the heart, its motives and rewards accordingly.  First
Corinthians 4:5.

Please forgive me for rambling a bit.  I did change the subject line as it
is no longer relevant to demon possession in my opinion.

Grant
Listening for His shout! - First Thessalonians 4:16

Visit the Home Page of Bartimaeus Alliance of the Blind, Incorporated at
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 On Sat, 24 Apr 2004, BD wrote:

> John,
>
> If he is not talking about individuals, but rather a group, then I could
> then not worry about grafting into anything, do my own thing,  as I'll be
> swept in by default? Who makes up the Jews and gentiles? It is not a simple
> label of a people, but the people, the individuals who make up that label.
> Just as a church is not brick and mortar, but the people are the
> church.  You are exactly right, we do not have the ability to save
> ourselves as we do indeed fall short of the mark and without Christ's
> sacrifice we are doomed, but that still does not give anyone license to
> negate God's absolute just in our response and freedom to choose him or
> not. Are you saying then that God will save a person after they have come
> to him, they then in turn willfully turn their backs and ways, their trust,
> their faith, and live life unto themselves, and yet God says that is OK
> with him? Does that sound like a God of absolutes?  It is OK for them to
> use the sacrifice of God for their own eye service as it suits them for the
> moment? Do we then, as Jews or gentiles, have any part to play in bringing
> us to a point of mercy's grasp? Are we saved without coming to him? Do we
> have a choice in the matter? Does that choice lead us closer to him, or
> farther from him, or doesn't it matter? We cannot save ourselves, yet it is
> a requirement we choose him over ourselves, the world or any other god, and
> accept Christ's sacrifice. Do we, as humans, have the ability to change our
> minds? To change our beliefs? What is the difference between an atheist and
> an agnostic? One believes in no God, and the other doesn't believe in
> anything. As far as salvation goes, there is no difference. If one chooses
> Christ, lives for Christ, but then strays, and no longer lives with Christ
> as center of his/her life, are they in belief? As far as I see Jesus even
> said there would be those who did things for the good of the church, cast
> out demons and etc. but with wrong agendas,  They will say "Lord, Lord.
> Look all we have done in your name." And he'll say "Go away doers of
> inequity. I never knew you"> If he says that to those who did good works
> for wrong agendas, how much more just is he to do same for those who live
> for themselves with those same agendas?  What people fail to see is even by
> our choice to choose Christ, it is still an act of grace and mercy we are
> saved. People make mistakes, they screw up, we all do.  and it is by grace
> and mercy that we then are saved too, but it is the contents, the aim, the
> agenda, the desire, the motive, the intentions of our heart that makes the
> difference. Those that live for Christ have evidence he is living in them.
> I suppose this is an age old topic, but  I myself would not risk my grace
> and mercy of salvation by choosing to not live more for him daily as a rule.
>
> Brad
>
> Brad
>
>
>
> >Brad, I do not believe that this is talking about an individual's
> >salvation, but rather the Jews and Gentiles.  If salvation depended upon
> >our keeping it, no one would be saved because all have sinned and come
> >short of the glory of God.
> >
> >earlier, BD, wrote:
> > >John,
> > >
> > >Romans 11:18-24
> > >"do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember
> > >that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You
> > >will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
> > >Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your
> > >faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural
> > >branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and
> > >severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness,
> > >if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And
> > >they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in,
> > >for God is able to graft them in again.  For if you were cut off from what
> > >is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a
> > >cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural
> > >branches be grafted into their own olive tree?"
> > >
> > >I read this as if we do not continue in him, we will be cut off. I find God
> > >to be one that is kind yes but also just, and it is unjust to lay his son
> > >on the cross, and have it soiled by a person come to Christ, say he is
> > >saved, then return to his old ways and bringing a mockery to the sacrifice.
> > >The argument is always, "Well then he was not saved in the first place".
> > >That is for God to judge, but I can't see him  giving eternal life to those
> > >no longer trusting, obeying, and holding him as Lord over their lives. But
> > >I can see him returning that eternal life to them if they return to
> > >submitting Lordship of Christ... just as the scripture indicates above. I
> > >also believe that John 3:16 is not a one time deal and that a continual
> > >believing, continual trust, continual faith, is what brings salvation, not
> > >a one time occurrence.
> > >
> > >Curious of your thoughts.
> > >
> > >Brad
> >
> >John
> >
> >    Democracy is three wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper
>
> Brad
>
>    To forgive is to set the prisoner free, and then discover the prisoner
> was you
>