On Thu, 4 Jul 2002, Phosphor wrote:
> > I'm not arguing that people didn't eat fish prior to the
> > mesolithic; I am arguing that fish probably weren't the main
> > source of om-3 fats until the late paleo/meso period.
> well i think this would depend from area to area...inland peoples would get
> more from bains of mammals, coastal peoples from sea creatures.
So what do you think about the people in the grasslands and
steppe-tundras where the bulk of our evolutionary history was
spent, according to Audette and others?
> >The only claim of the sort that I know of is that the *ratio* of >om-6 to
> om-3 is too high.
> either because Om-6 is too high, Om-3 is too low, or both. We know the first
> is not true. The second is true. But land mammals are not a great source of
> Om-3 compared with sea species anyway.
They are not bad if you consume the entire carcass, including
brains.
> > But that is only one issue about domesticated fatty meat.
> > Another is the ratio of MUFA, SFA, and PUFA in wild versus > domesticated
> fatty meat. In wild game meats, the ratio is
> > roughly this: MUFA = SFA + PUFA. In feedlot animal fat, it's quite
> different.
> which fat are u talking about? intramuscular i guess. As i think you are not
> talking about marrow or depot fat, or subcutaneous. Since primitive man ate
> all these fats, this comparison becomes meaningless unless you ate only this
> fat.
Cordain analyzed total carcass fat. You read the paper I cited,
right? Intramuscular fat is mostly absent in wild game, but in
commercial meats it's just about the only fat consumed. I think
I have made this point at least three times.
> How do u get from "intramuscular fat is not the same as it used to be" to
> "eat only lean meat and get all your fat from olive oil." ?crazy.
But that's not what he recommends, so what is the point of the
straw man argument. Let me aske again: Did you read Cordain's
book? Have you read his published research?
> > Why is olive oil not paleo? Incidentally, Audette also
> > recommends olive oil.
> well, i guess it depends on your definition of paleo. you could squeeze some
> oil with your hand out of a primitive olive tree, but it wouldnt be a
> regular thing before agriculture.
You didn't answer my question. Audette endorses olive oil. You
claimed Cordain was incompetent or a liar for doing so, so the
same must apply to Audette. Which is it?
> > That would be incoherent only if DGA and EPA were the only > om-3 oils
> there are. Are you lying or incompetent?
> I know of one other VLCPUFA - DPA - which has effects on blood pressure and
> various other functions. this is also found almost exclusively in sea
> creatures - and in this case the best source is sea mammals - so it doesnt
> change my basic position. Do you know of any others?
ALA is an om-3 fat, though not VLC. But then we weren't
discussing VLC until now. ALA is found in some nuts, in small
quantities in some animal fats, in certain greens, such as
purslane, etc. and of course in flax oil.
> > His view is that the differences between the two >are significant enough
> to make the latter something to be >restricted
> Tallow is highly saturated fat. Dept fat is highly saturated fat. primitive
> man ate depot fat, and every other fat they could eat from animals. This is
> not an overly-complex issue. The issue is that Cordain pretends that
> saturated fats were a low proportion in diets of primitive man. In his own
> words:
> "The western diet is overburdened not only by saturated fats, but there is
> an imbalance in the type of polyunsaturated fats we eat"
> http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache:4g0L5DD3Zf0C:www.dfhi.com/interviews/co
> rdain.html+cordain+loren+saturated&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
>
> since primitive man ate depot fat, how is this true?
Again, Cordain's analysis of carcass fats indicates a roughly
constant ratio of MUFA=SFA+PUFA. He thinks that it is important
to come somewhere close to that, and that is the sense in which
we are overburdened with SFAs. Since most of us are not going
to eat brains and marrow, adjustments must be made.
> "The human dietary staple for more than 2 million years was lean game meat
> supplemented by fresh fruits and vegetables"
> there it is. primitve man must have thrown way all the marrow, depot fat,
> etc etc since he ate only lean meat. you agree with him?
No, I don't agree with that, and I agree that it is a careless
remark. But I have the benefit of having read his book and his
research, rather than fixating on a single statement. It's not a
low-fat diet, so why are we discussing it as if it is?
Todd Moody
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