On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Phosphor wrote:

> > You are arguing that allergens are a reason to avoid plant
> > foods *in general* are you not?
> you should take more fish oils, then you may be able to follow exactly what
> i have said.

You have said that people wishing to implement a paleo diet
should eat as few plant foods (excluding herbs) as possible,
because these foods contain antinutrients and toxins.

> > The presence of antinutrients is not a reason to avoid foods
> > altogether.
> there is no reason to follow the worst aspects of paleo life. well, you
> could if u wanted, but I'm not.

You've yet to demonstrate that people are worse off for eating
vegetables.

> > and certainly was not a reason for paleo people to
> > avoid them, since they didn't even know of their existence.
> they certainly did, since they followed quite elaborate methods of leaching
> out the cyanides for example.

Ah, I see.  If you allow that paleo people used such methods, the
next question is: Did they work?

> >These substances are only problematic when consumed in >large quantities.
> The same is true of cynaides.
> its a pity you simply make things up as you go along, without bothering to
> do any research. from what i remember reading, 10mg of phytic acid will
> block almost the entire absorption of zinc from an average meal.  cyanides
> accumulate and can cause chronic toxicity.

It's not so simple.  See
http://www.iza.com/zhe_org/Articles/Art-05.htm, for example. "In
contrast, the inclusion of even small amounts of animal and fish
protein may enhance zinc absorption. The mechanism is unclear.
Certain amino acids and cysteine-containing peptides, released
during digestion of cellular animal products, may form soluble
ligands with zinc and/or form complexes with zinc, thereby
preventing the formation of the insoluble zinc-phytate complex."

And see www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ehp/ehd/catalogue/
bch_pubs/dwgsup_doc/cyanide.pdf for the point that "Cyanide is
rapidly detoxified in the body...", so that the minute amounts
present in, say, apples and fish livers (from pollution,
unfortunately) do not accumulate unless consumed in amounts
greater than what the detoxification pathway can handle.

> >The mere presence of an antinutrient or toxin simply doesn't >make a food
> nonpaleo.
> i dont see you wandering around the tundra. i guess because you dont want to
> live like paleo man did, but to get the best diet on paleo principles, which
> would be food in abundant times. not in starvation times.

There is no evidence that the majority of hunter-gatherers of
past or present avoided vegetables, or only ate them in
starvation times.  Why should we?

Todd Moody
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