Hi Liza,

you said:
>There's no question in my mind that Bin Laden, the Taliban,
>and others closely connected are responsible for this.

In my mind there are still some questions. But I admit that all
evidence speakes for your hypothesis so far.

>Or, to put it
>more broadly, every human who is not a fundamentalist radical muslim.

OTOH this reduces the problem to a small group of fundamentalists
which makes it easier, I think. A broad support by muslimic groups
would be much more difficult to handle.

>Has the United States helped to create this problem? Yes, in the sense
>that we are the biggest, most visible embodiement of the being on the
>lucky end of capitalism.

And in the sense that the U.S. are the symbol of imperialism for
some people.

>But the United States, and your country Germany, and many other
>Democratic countries, have values which are VERY different from the
>values espoused by Bin Laden and radical fundamental Islam.

Indeed.

>And they
>HATE our values, and believe we should be wiped out, that that is the
>only solution to the problem of how to make the world one of radical
>fundamentalist Islamic values instead of Democratic values.

This is the point where I speak of mental illness. One can dislike
the values of others and find them stupid. But the consequence to
wipe out those others is mentally sick, IMHO.
BTW I find some of the so called values of muslimic fundamentalists
ridiculous and primitive, e.g. their thinking about the roles of men
and women.

>Now Stefan, do YOU want to live like that? Bin Laden wouldn't allow you
>that choice, because he hates you for being a Westerner, and wants you
>dead. But if you COULD choose, can you honestly tell me you would choose
>such a world? I don't think you would.

You know my answer to this rhetoric question already. No, this is not
how I want to live. It's completely unbearable.

>I'm speaking here for you, but
>you and I have now known each other through these email groups for
>what - some seven years? From what I know of you, I think you DO in fact
>feel strongly about people's right to choose how they want to live.
...
>I think you like having these freedoms.

Yes, to both of your statements!

>Well, Bin Laden doesn't believe you should. And he will stop at nothing
>(which is the problem) to destroy what has been created to allow you to
>have these freedoms.

I'm not sure that this is really his aim. Partially yes. But if there's
a minimal portion of realism left on his side, he will know that such
ideas are not suitable to the modern world. They are good for his ancient
world of primitive people. Most of the planet has left this level of
development.

>What I would love help with is in thinking about the how part. The
>"whether" or "why" part is clear to me.

I still think that only patiently and stubbornly following the road
of supporting democratic governments, insisting on the human rights
to be observed, helping the poor and urging battling parties to make
peace is suited to change the problem of global terrorism.

>I do
>believe that two things must be done - the ugly thing, and the humane
>thing following immediately after.

If the ugly thing means punishing the helpers and supporters of the
attack on the WTC and the Pentagon, I agree. I don't think, that
much more ugly things should be done - else we would leave the grounds
of our civilization.

>What we really value here is "turn the other cheek."   That is NOT the
>way things are viewed, or "felt" would be the better word, in
>Afghanistan. The culture there is just different. The "eye for an eye"
>philosophy of dealing with problems - where retribution is THE key
>currency - is highly respected, seen as morally right, superior.  To not
>respond with retribution is seen as cowardly, shameful, irresponsible,
>wrong.

Let's just leave this problem to them. Everything else would mean
that they force us to go down on their primitive moral level.

>So retribution is important in that sense because we are "speaking" to
>each other in our acts and symbolic gestures. We are carrying on a
>conversation with that world.

Don't forget that most of the world does not subsist on a primitive
moral level like that of the Taliban.

>The grievance is
>that they don't want Western culture and values to exist in the world.
>They want to wipe you off the face of the earth, and your mother, and
>your uncles, nieces, best friend, me, my kids, all our books and our art
>and music, and Orthos.  They will not stop until this is accomplished.

I agree that those people do not practice a culture of tolerance. But
I'm sure they know that it is unrealistic to change the whole world
to their primitive standards.
Therefore I am    n o t    in fear of further attacks. I see the
current attack as a symbolic deed to show, that America is vulnerable.
And letting out all the cumulated anger, aggression and hatred.
But no chance to destroy the Western culture. More like a stitch with
a needle.

>So we have no choice but to stop them. You may feel more strongly after
>some terrorist strike in Germany, which there will most certainly be.

I am thinking of this being a single symbolic attack which will not
be repeated within the next 10 or 20 years.
And until then we should have managed to make this a more peaceful
planet.

>But from
>everything I read, stories writting by Afghanis, old books and stories
>from that part of the world, it is not a pretty history. It's a history
>of vicious, barbaric, murderers.  Not warriors fighting for goodness,
>simply warriors fighting for power over enemy tribes. It is not a place
>you would want to move to, to live a peaceful life.

Thom Hartman's "The last hours of ancient sunlight" comes into my mind
at this point. He explains that the old tribes became mentally sick at
some time and began to fight their neighbours. Unfortunately he could
give no explanation for this radical change in behaviour. I can. I think
it was the beginning neolithic age and the strong changing of the nutri-
tion (introducing grains and more and more cooked foods) which caused
this mental sickness. There we are again at the topic of this list.

>I apologize for the rambling, disorganized nature of this post. I'm
>banging out words here - too fast - too many thoughts and I havent'
>fully formed them yet.

I understand your situation and hope you can arrange your emotions
such that a clear idea of what is appropriate to do forms in your mind.

>But I appreciate your friendship, and the connection with other people
>on this list that I've now know for a few years, and I hope we can help
>each other to think clearly now.

Yes, the same for me. Thank you for your long explanations.

Best regards,

Stefan