Liza May wrote:
>
> > That is because these principles are backed up by an army.
>
> No Anwar. Sometimes only by laws.

And when you break the laws what happens. The law is only important if
it is enforced, if there is an incentive to make you follow it. Whether
that is that you agree with the laws or you don't want to be punished.

> > Let us look at the
> > whole history of the united states and then see if these principles
> have
> > always been held.
>
> Not always. But when you build something you build it with good, good,
> principles, the best you can think of. And then you face the problem of
> people - and I know you know that people can really twist even the best
> principles up. But that doesn't mean the theory isn't great. You don't
> give up on your dream because the people keep straying from it. That's
> like saying that you should give up on telling children to stay away
> from cigarettes because every now and then a child starts smoking. The
> principles are good. But you're right, they have not always been upheld.

Well, I'm glad we  agree on this. Trying to uhpold good principles is
important and I suppot this. Even if things look grim. But many of these
principles are not just american. And as long as a country uphold these I
support that country. When it doesn't I don't support that
country(atleast in this breaking of the principles.)

> > The united states is NOT and let me say again NOT unique in
> > the aspect of letting others do whatever it is they feel is right to
> do.
>
> Anwar I guess I've said it enough times now for you to either ignore or
> acknowledge this. But I'll say it one more time. There is no other
> country yet that holds, as it's central doctrines, freedom of the
> individual and separation of church and state. Name me one other
> country, anywhere, in any time, that holds these principles as the
> highest values of all.  Both you and Carol have said that there have GOT
> to be other countries that share these values, you feel sure there must
> be. But you have not given any examples! Not even one example! Why is it
> that you are so certain there are other countries like the US, but yet
> you can't think of any of them? Maybe what I would really like to know
> is, why do you WANT to think that there are other countries that hold
> individual freedom in the way that the US does? Why do you want this?
>
You look and see if there are other countries like this. I think many
countries in Europe would fall into this category and I'm sure there have
been others in history. True history is not always in the textbooks hon.

 >
>  >  We do not know the whole of the history of mankind so
> > we CANNOT say that this is a novel thing.
>
> You are young, and maybe have not read much history yet. But some of us
> have. Until you read it for yourself, you will not understand that the
> United States is in fact truly a unique and "novel thing" in the history
> of the human race.
>
Now, I guess since you guessed i was young you knew this would be a soft
spot. An american problem is the ignoring of young people no matter how
intelligent what they have to say is or  how insight for just because
they are young. I could say now that you are old and have chosen to be
biased and set in your ways because it makes you comfortable. But will
not take it there in hope that we are having an intelligent, honest and
true discussion.

> > The Qur'an also promotes this,
> > though Islamic hadeeth later abrogate it. Because the Qur'an promotes
> this I
> > am sure during the time when Muhammad, God bless him, was alive and
> > preached the Qur'an, there was a community that practice these same
> > principles.
>
> You are saying that the Qur'an advocates individual freedom as its
> central value? Does that mean the freedom to practice other religions?
> To not worship Allah? To not recognize Muhammad as anyone special? That
> this is its CENTRAL value?
>
Yes. It is a central value. The central value is to worship God(don't say
Allah if you don't speak Arabic we ares speaking in English and Allaahu=God).
I have put it forth many times so far. I've eve quoted from the Qur'an. I
read the book in Arabic and I know that this is what it promotes. It says
'laa ikraaha feedeeni' meaning "There shall be no forcing concerning
order, religion and ways of life'. If you read other passages it is clear
that freedom of religion is key and so is being peacable as long as one
is not being wronged or fought and driven out of one's home for the
religion, order they the followers of the Qur'an are to espouse and for
all who are submissive to and for God. Freedom to practice one's
religion, order and ways of life are key to the Qur'an. When this is not
upheld then one is to defend one's self and to fight until those who
threaten this freedom of order, religion and way of life is non-existent
and the enemy establishes and keeps to the promotion of good and
well-being,(iqaamatusawlawaati) and are in compliance with
justice(eetaa'uzakawaati).

>
> > You are too nationalistic.
>
> I think I understand what you are saying here, that you do not think
> that "nationalism" makes any sense. I agree - it's stupid to divide
> people up based on some line drawn in a field, and say the people on
> this side of the line are better than the people on that side.
>
> I am proud, very proud, though, of the group of people that happen to
> live within some arbitrary lines drawn in a field, of which through
> sheer luck I happen to have been born into, happen also just by chance
> to have some really, really, really cool values that I agree with.
> Really visionary, bold values, in my opinion, that will make a good
> world for my great grandchildren.
>
> It's the VALUES that matter to me, and the fact that this group of
> people, within these particular borders, have committed to trying to
> live by these values.
>

It's the values that matter to me. And i can support American values but
be against American behavior. Why? Because they are not always in congruence.

> > I'm not anti-U.S.
>
> Yes you are. I haven't heard you say a single positive thing yet about
> this country.  But you do have many criticisms.
>
Whatever. You have heard what I've had to say. I'm not anti-us when it comes
to many of its principles and I am when it comes to much of its behavior.
But think what you like, you have the freedom to do that(no matter what
land your from even if you can't express it)

> > don't really care for your example.
>
> Why not? To me this example is totally American, and it is beautiful.
> Where else in the entire world would you find male - and female -
> religious clergy, standing in a ballpark in the Bronx, underneath
> flashing neon signs advertising liquor and athletic shoes, holding
> hands, with a full stadium of people of every faith and color and age,
> praying together for peace? This was not done under military force! This
> was 100% American in every way.

Okay. :) I see you have a thing for pretty pictures.
>
> > For many if it weren't that the gov.
> > punishes for murder and obviously oppression of religion in the U.S.
> >  these
> > groups would still be warring. Yet there have been times when all have
> lived
> > under the same gov. and lived in good peace. Do not deny this.
>
> I have not followed you.
>
I can see how you wouldn't. Military and Control go beyond pure force.
Psychology is a very important weapon.

> > I support
> > those excellent, just, logical, intelligent and prudent things and I
> denounce
> > those that contradict these thigs, whether the U.S. embraces it or
> whether S.
> > Africa embraces. I stand for the principles, not the tradition or the
> so
> > called 'unity'.
>

> I don't understand these paragraphs Anwar.

Why don't you understand this. It is clear. Read it again. Or perhaps it
is because you refuse to see any wrong that the u.s. may commit.

> > I don't so much disagree with what your saying but more the tone
> > with which you say it.
>
> Maybe you are embarassed because I'm so totally in love with my country?
>
Embarrased? Why in the world would I be embarrased? Maybe a little upset
and your blindness. But not embarrased. Anyway, I've dealt with such
blindness for a long time. It doesn't bother me, though it sometimes
frustrates me. This is  natural.

> >  The united states has certainly not always lived up to
> > it's principles and it in ways does not today.
>
> I agree with you, and I too wish we were perfect, and I believe we will
> get there. But although we are not perfect, we do still have good
> principles, though, as our guiding light. I'm proud of these principles
> of individual freedom and tolerance. Somebody needs to hold these out
> there as THE top principles, and I'm so proud that it just happens to be
> my country. If I hadn't been born here, I'd want to move to this country
> and become an American.
>
Perfect, hmmmm. 'i too wish we were perfect'. This reminds me of that
popular saying "everyone can't be perfect'. Well, if we can't recognize
our problems how can we every be fully just and not hypocrites. I'm not
even talking about perfection. Because with most this word carries
'impossiblity'. So I never mention this word. Only the goals of being
honest and not hypocritical. As well as being true to one's principles in
every since of the word. Even when one faults. But to fault in ignorance
and to fault on purpose are two different things.

>
> > I look and see and then judge.
> > I'm not as biased as you may believe.
>
> Here's how you sound to me: like a young person who is very open minded,
> intelligent, thoughtful, skeptical, and unknowledgeable of history. You
> sound like a smart person, who is uneducated, and is trying to reach
> conclusions without knowing much at all about the past.


Sure... whatever. I do know alot about history. Thank you for the
complements and no thank you for the comments that are condescending.
Give me more credit than what you are doing. I wouldn't speak without
having a base behind it. I hope you saw the real points in my argument
here, and we are not arguing what the other thinks that the other means.

Godbless,
Anwar