siobhan <[log in to unmask] posted:
Fluoride is not organic.
Fluorine is organic and naturally occuring in foods and trace minerals.
Fluorine can be found in the naturally occuring minerals in water. Fluoride
is what is added. There is no way that trace amounts as they naturally
occur in foods and water are dangerous. It is inorganic matter that carries
a positive charge and is too alkaline for the body to utilize.
Don's reply:
I think you are confused about fluorine and fluoride.
First of all, fluorine is an element classed as a halogen by chemists, along
with chlorine and iodine. NONE of these are 'organic' in the chemical
sense, as in the chemical sense, 'organic' means a compound of carbon.
Hence, fluorine is NOT 'organic'. Now, on to fluoride.
According to Webester's Dictionary,
Iodine: A lustruous, grayish-black corrosive, poisonous element having
radioactive isotopes.
Iodide: A binary compound of iodine with another element.
[Iodine occurs in food in the form of iodides, e.g. sodium iodide (not in
the form of iodine gas).]
Chlorine: A highly irritating, greenish yellow gaseous element. Chlorine
is a poison.
Chloride: A binary compound of chlorine (chlorine bound with another
compound) with some other element.
[Again, chloride is found in foods in the form of sodium chloride, which
unlike *chlorine* is not a poison.]
Fluorine: A pale yellow highly corrosive, poisonous, gaseous element, the
most electronegative and reactive of all the elements.
Fluoride: A binary compound of fluorine with some other element, for
example sodium fluoride.
The combination of a halogen (a gas) with a substance such as sodium results
in a "salt," that is, sodium fluoride, like sodium chloride, is called a
salt.
Flourine is found in foods always in the form of a fluoride salt, such as
sodium fluoride.
Flourine (in the form of flouride) is naturally occuring in almost all
water, soil, plant, and animals. It is therefore a natural part of all
diets. Because it is ubiquitous, it is nearly impossible to produce a diet
totally lacking fluoride, or even a gluoride deficiency severe enough to
depress growth in animals. However, it is known that fluoride is naturally
incorporated into bones and teeth, and that people ingesting enough (but not
to much) fluoride--about 1.5 to 4.0 mg per day-- have bones and teeth that
are stronger than those of people who ingest less than 1.5 mg per day.
However, like other essential elements, flourine (as fluoride) can be toxic
if ingested in excessive amounts. As with other nutrients, excess fluoride
tends to produce the opposite effects of optimum amounts; whereas small,
optimum amounts of fluoride strengthen teeth and bones, excessive amounts
weaken teeth and bones.
The question is, what is excessive in the case of fluorine/fluoride ?
From Weston Price's book," Nutrition and Physical Degeneration,"
(Note: "F" is the chemical designation for Fluorine.)
"F presumably has always been a constant in the environment of plant and
animal life. Since living forms are the product of their environment, F has
presumably had a part in vital phenomena.... These studies have accordingly
been made to determine the effect of F on plant and animal growth; and on
the levels at which it becomes toxic in the water bathing plant roots and
when ingested by animals in water and food... F as NaF (sodium fluoride)
added in progessive amounts to sprouting corn---had a progressive
stimulating part up to 10 parts per million of the water; 20 parts or more
were very toxic.... When, however, Ca (calcium) and P (phosphorus) were
added to the fluid, the toxic effect was very greatly reduced....
Studies have also been made of the effect on mineral metabolism when F is
ingested by rats....[here he includes a bunch of data from the studies]..
These data indicate that 1 percent of NaF (diet) caused general disturbance
of mineral metabolism." pages 473-474.
One percent of diet is a rather large amount. For a person eating 3.5
pounds of food daily (1.6 kilograms), a certainly toxic amount of NaF would
then be 16 grams. This would be consuming NaF in amounts 5 to 8 times the
amount of NaCl (table salt) commonly consumed in America. This is way out
of possibility even with drinking fluoridated water.
Siobhan claimed: "There is no way that trace amounts as they naturally
occur in foods and water are dangerous." However, in some areas of the
Earth, fluoride does naturally occur in water in amounts that are harmful.
Price noted dental fluorosis and weak teeth are common in areas where the
waters have natural fluoride contents of 23 to 31 parts per million.
The National Academy of Sciences states: "Mottling of the teeth in children
has been observed at fluoride concentrations in diet and drinking water of
2-8 parts per million."
To avoid excess fluoride intakes, the NAS recommends fluoridation of water
to obtain a level not more than 1 part per million (including
naturally-occuring fluoride). It also established 1.5-4 mg/day as safe and
adequate for adults, with 2.5 mg per day recommended as the maximum for
children, to avoid dental fluorosis.
Again from the NAS: "The well-defined chronic fluoride toxicity, fluorosis,
is seen only in persons consuming in excess of 20 mg/day over extended
periods of time (WHO, 1970, Fluorides and human health, WHO Monograph Series
No. 59)."
To intake 20 mg per day from water fluoridated at 1 part per million (1 mg
per kg), you would have to drink 20 kg of water, that is 5.5 gallons or
approx. 22 liters, daily. The typical two liter per day intake of water
would provide only 2 mg fluoride maximum, leaving a safety margin of 100%.
Other facts about fluoride:
1. Almost all of the fluoride in the sea is sodium fluoride.
2. There are 1.846 billion tons of sodium fluoride in the oceans.
3. The seas are teeming with life, constantly exposed to 1.3 parts per
million fluoride.
4. The earth's crust contains 700 parts per million fluoride.
So, in all, it seems clear to me that fluoride, specifically sodium
fluoride, is about as "natural" as you can get, and it is highly unlikely
that 1 part per million in your drinking water, or that consuming fluoride
from tea leaves or fish, or any other food source, is toxic.
Don
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