>axel wrote:
>
>>> HIV is a myth. there is no proof that the virus does anything at all.
it=
> is
>>> just a myth and a hoax. viruses are not beings or living entities! it is
>>> impossible that they DO something, for the same reason it is impossible
>that
>>> chairs or rocks DO something to somebody, like "the chair hurted me", or
>>> "the rock attacked me",
>
>alan:
>
>>Ever been near a volcano or an avalanche?..rocks sure can attack you. ;-)
>
>axel:
>
>>> or "a tiny piece of dead tissue hurted me".
>>> how can dead pieces of matter get out of control? do chairs get out of
>>>  control?
>>>
>>>
>>> i am not very knowledgeable on health matters, but i do have my common
>>> sense,
>
>alan:
>
>>Well your common sense should tell you that your belief that a
>>virus is inactive or inert rather than a living organism is totally
>>irrelevant. We have the ability today to be able to actually
>>see viruses reproducing..meaning to be able to see viruses
>>entering and reprogramming cells to produce more viruses rather
>>than something else.
>
>i just do not believe this at all. please point me to a book or video or
>anything where i can SEE the virus clearly DOING anything. are you telling
>me you have seen a non-living thing, that just happens to be around cells,
>REPROGRAMMING a cell? seriously, i want to see such an incredible thing. i
>have heard that they said the same with the "aids virus", meaning that
>actually the cell was engulfing (sp?) the virus, and they said "look, the
>virus is invading the cell". but now you say REPROGRAMMING? i have to see
>it. please indicate some references. honestly, i am just kidding, for there
>is NO WAY something dead ever does anything. there are no misteries like
>this. there are loads of things we human beings do not fully understand,
>etc, but come on, how did they convinced us of the virus thing? it does not
>make sense! organic matter cannot do things to living beings! am i being
>too extremist here? what is so fascinating about the virus explanation of
>disease, that we go to such extremes of imagination? it is not a being,
>then it cannot do anything. beings do things, like moving, eating,
>changing, adapting, healing, breathing, fighthing, etc etc etc, but
>non-living THINGS, do not.
>
>alan:
>
> Viruses may not be live organisms as we
>>know them (i.e. which contain a nucleus) but they are certainly
>>capable of carrying pieces of DNA and using these pieces to
>>reprogram the DNA in a cell to make the cell produce more copies
>>of the virus.
>
>
>axel:
>
>again, please tell me of concrete proof for this. i want to see the virus
>doing all this you say. i do not take the scientist=B4s word for it ;)
>
>alan:
>
> As viruses need live cells to propagate and
>>viruses have been found in both live and dead cells, it is not
>>unlikely that viruses actually play some important role within
>>each and every cell (although it is not yet quite known what
>>useful role they play). It could be that each cell keeps a
>>stock of certain viruses containing certain pieces of DNA as
>>a sort of spare parts store to repair any serious damage to
>>some vital parts of the cell DNA. All this is of course merely
>>theory at the moment=20
>
>but it is certainly a fact that viruses
>>both exist and are able to program cells to produce copies
>>of themselves.
>
>
>axel:
>
>bring the proof so i can see it. i want a video to see the virus doing
>anything.=20
>


This above discussion, might not need to be on 2 opposites sides if we can
embrace the idea that the cell is not victime of an intruder (viruses) but
choose to integate it, the same way we choose to integrate the food we eat >
you are righ Axel that a dead piece of organic matter doesn't DO anything ,
the same way a cooked food is not INVADING  your body you still have to
allow it to enter your mouth, but yet : do you believe that cooked food is
not "harmfull"? why do you want to eat raw ? do you deny the"power " of the
inert molecule of arsenic to kill you .?
You are right Alan when you mention the fact that this piece of genetic
material ( viruses) is combining  to the genetic  program of the cell to
allow the cell to do a job that it have not been geneticaly programmed to do
( because  for most of our evolution it didn't need too: dealing with
molecules that have been denatured, deformed and have been allowed by the
cell to enter because ther was nothing else to get )
But i think you are not being fair to the power of the living cell by
writing < the virus is  entering and reprograming it>
Hopefully we still have the choice of what we put in our mouth and of not
allowing the food to INVADE  us  ( do we?)
Let's focus on that one and let the cell deal with  the virus or any
molecules that happen to be around.
There is enough in our plate
Jean-claude