Hi Kirt,
Thank you very much for your long answer to my long answer to your first
long answer to my long original post... It's raining here too now. So, it
seems its raining all over the world and that ain't good, except for your
mangoostines trees and for my car which gets a free wash.

F : (original nutrition) can hardly be compared to an addiction.
K : There is reasonable debate about whether humans' "original nutrition" is
> entirely raw.
F : Fortunately, so we can have fun arguing about it.

K : Nevertheless, I am speaking of the instincto who feels "special", who is
not
> a "common folk", who can spend great amounts of time/money/energy
obtaining
> "pure" foods, who loves to idealise nature and gurus, who looks down on
> humanity because it is not as enlightened and disciplined as s/he is (...)

F : So, you don't speak of me, it seems.

K : And whenever I speak of such things with instinctos they say that those
> things must've been my problems because they are not like that. This must
be
> how an ex-crackhead feels when speaking to a user, no?

F : My sister returned to cooked - mixed food after ten years of  90%
instinctive nutrition and I don't  feel speaking to a user when I talk to
her now. But she doesn't criticise Burger or anyone else, nor she blames the
instincto theory. I don't blame her neither, that's her wish if she likes to
eat the food she has always been cooking for her familly and be obese again.

F : > It is rather the quite
> > recent neolithic cooked nutrition based on cereal grains and dairy
> > products which is an addiction

K : Perhaps.

F : > Many guys fall back
> > after thinking and boasting enthousiasticaly they've found the ultimate
> > truth and nutrition.

K : And a special few don't fall back thinking they have found the ultimate
in
> truth and nutrition, eh? ;)

F : It seems that it is paradoxicaly the contrary : the ones who don't
believe Burger's or other instinctos claims and don't expect too much of
instinctive nutrition could go on more easily than the folks expecting
marvellous and easy to obtain  perfect health.

K :  I am limited to the english writings on instincto. Perhaps Burger's
books
> are full of concern for this dense fog you speak of, but I seriously doubt
it.

F : You write somewhere that an english translation  of Burger's book is
available on the web, but I couldn't find it. Burger isn't dogmatic at all
in his writings, except maybe in some very ancient texts.

K : The instincto line is that cooked foods are not "original", meaning that
> they are bad. The more clever line (yours, when pressed) is that cretain
> cooked foods may be OK but there's no way to tell for sure so avoid cooked
> foods. In any case, it sounds like dogma to me.

F : We don't (althougth some instinctos do) mean they are bad. We mean that
there is no prove we are adapted to them, though adaptation might be under
way, at least in some cases. You're free to experiment with cooked food, as
well as I'm free to experiment with fully raw. I don't pretend, nor Burger
would, that you are wrong and we are right : we are just experimenting and
telling sometimes what results we obtained.

 F : There must have been a broad range of datations depending on location
> > and climate and it is probable that some remote hunters-gatherers
remained
> > untouched by the cooking addiction until some few thousand years ago.

K :  Yes. So what does that mean? That these hypothetical hunter-gatherers
were
> still eating the "original nutrition"? ;)

F : Not necessarilly, depending on their location and environnment.

>  F : Maybe. But is there any ideal standart for results ?

K : Sure. Burger has quite a list of indicators of health. Very overboard,
very
> idealised, and no one seems to obtain all these results.

F : I would agree, no one obtained them alltogheter. But each must have been
obtained independently, though, as I said, Burger and Comby seem to me a bit
too optimistics. They are not Gods and their claims aren't all accepted
whithout questionning by other reasonable instinctos.

 > K : Is there a list of cooked foods that Burger considers non-toxic?
 > F :  Jean-Louis Tu has one on this site (see my original post).
K : Yeah, but how about Burger? ;) Or am I misunderstanding...
F : No, he doesn't provide any such list since he shows that our science is
unable to prove anything in this field.

K : By The Way (BTW), I am assuming you are confusing "this site" (meaning
the
> beyongveg web site) with this mailing list. They are separate things.

F : Thank you for this info, yes I was confusing them. I'm new here and
quite new on the web also.

K : What remains to be proved is that only raw foods don't create havoc
among
> finely tuned biochemical processes. ;) Seriously, how fine tuned do you
> really think human digestive chemistry (and its associated genetics) is
> after so much time cooking and quite a few generations of agriculture. I
> would call this a bottleneck of evolution. If a particular human was 100%
> evolved to only raw paleo foods, they would not have been as likely to
> procreate when born into a tribe that had started cooking, or farming.

F : The troubles due to cooking can happen long after LRS (remember our
friend Stefanie?), and that's why selective presure is probably low, leading
to very slow adaptation.
K : My guess is that we are not perfectly adapted to an all raw diet
anymore, but
> of course, we are likely not adapted to a cooked diet. (...)
F : You may be right. In this case there wouldn'be much hope. (Here I just
recall the exact words of Burger !)
 > K : When did he tell you this?
 > F : At least twice in 1987 and latter at Montrame on his public course.
K : So this is from a seminar? Is it found in his books?
F : Yes,  freely talking in a seminar, not writen anywhere - to my
knowledge.

K : (...) It probably gets boring because one has fewer nutrient detriments
after
> a time instincto, so everything/anything raw tastes OK but nothing comes
> close to the ecstacy of the first months/years of instincto.

F : I think it is highly a matter of personnal feeling here. And whether you
are hungry or overfed, there's a big difference. But what you say is often
true for a particular foodstuff : the first discovery is the more ecstasic
and you may never get again the same. But for me, the level of pleasure is
still great after 15 years, though my food choice range changes somewhat
over the years.

K : Interestingly, it appears that instinctos living in the tropics in
> less-than-modern conditions may have more health problems than you barely
> pre-neolithic temperate zone mountaineer Swiss instinctos living with
> (probably) more modern conveniences. I know you could (will) argue that
the
> Hawaiian instinctos are not "doing it right" but there may be more than
> irony in the observation above.

F : Yes, it shall be interesting to investigate this problem. I've been 4
times in the Pacific, visiting several islands (French Polynesia, Rarotonga,
Eastern Samoa, Fiji, Tonga) and I found everywhere a limited variety of food
. I don't know about Hawaii.

F :  (...) one may discover very often new tastes and get much more
> > eating pleasure than what is the case with cooked and mixed food.

K : Trust me, I did. ;) Fours years in Thailand (and a couple thousand
durian
> probably) left me feeling like leaving the humid tropics, kinda like our
> ancestors did. ;)

F : Interesting. The rain season is awfull, but it's fine during the dry
season. I learned some days ago about the "aquatic ape theory" (AAT), and I
like it. Where our close ancestors realy lived? Could it be they were well
nowhere? Did we come out from a mix of different phylums? We know little
about evolution and there are many mysteries left.

 F : No, I do not hang out with instinctos.
K : Cooked fooders don't count. Do you hang out with ex-instinctos???
F : My sister only, but I seldom see her.
K : There must be several hundred or thousand or more in Europe, no? ;)
F : Could be, but I ain't realy a social character and I do not "hang out"
with many personns.

K : How long have you been at it?  F: 15 years
K :What were you eating before?
F : A lot of cheese and macaronis ! But no refined sugar, no junk food nor
coffee since 1964.

K : I know what you mean about more pleasure, but I'm telling you my
experience which includes
> more pleasure with mixing and cooking than with instincto.

F : What can I do for you? If you like it so, go on so, I don't mind. But,
please, do not agress Burger or myself about that!

 F : (...) The generaly accepted
>  range in the litterature for the mastering (F : sorry, mastery!)of the
fire is  between 500 000
> and 350 000 years ago .
K : If that is generally accepted by instinctos then the theory crumbles.
> 25,000 generations away from an all-raw dietary does not make instincto
our
> original food, especially since fully modern humans are much more recent
> than that. But OK...
F : Burger ever spoke of about 400000 ans in his seminars, and it is also
writen in his book ( I lend it to a friend, so I'm unable to check right
now). He wouldn't provide data compromising his whole theory, would he? He
also shows durations necessary for genetic changes taken from a reference
book, with a diagram. You're right, Homo Sapiens Sapiens is more recent than
the mastery of the fire. But what does it prove?

F > 450 000 years ago appeared the first known human disease, "pyorrhee
> > alveolaire"(in French), followed by malaria, "meningiome", syphilis and
> > then "actinomycose" 35000 years ago.
.
K : I am not familiar with many of the words above. But I would expect that
a
> change in dietary would leave a mark in metabolism and that would include
> diseases. If no wild animal ever got sick or diseased I would be startled
by
> such a finding, but its not like disease was invented by cooking.

F : Wild animals get sick when the human observer is not aware  that his
food leftover, refuse and garbage are dangerous for the animal he's
observing. This was the case for Jane Goodall living between chimps, as well
as all other observers. The reports of dinosaurus dieaseses proved to be
false, except very rare cases of minor skeleton abnormalities.
K : Subtract humans from the planet--like they never evolved--and there is
still sickness
> and disease.
F : It looks like there would be very much less.
K : Further, it may be that cooking helped pre-humans avoid other
> diseases associated with fecal and other contamination of decomposing
animal
> foods. Who knows?
F : You are wildly conjuncturing. I did read on BV website that cooked meat
rot while raw meat gets gamy.
K : There is very little black and white in nature and none in
> natural selection. Nature isn't PERFECT, it is only what works, tradeoffs
> galore. In that case, humans are very natural. ;)
F : Yes, they are, even their tools, fire, technology and nuclear power.

F : In 1987, 1988, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1995 and 2001, each time for about a
> > week. As for Burger "sales pitch", it seems he isn't a succesfull
> > salesman.
K : Perhaps because he lies? ;)  Seriously, I wonder if we crossed paths
there
> in the late 80's. You're not the (then) young guy with the golden staph
are
> you? And 2001? I thought it was shut down...? How about an update on
> Montrame, if you would.
F : No, I was born in 1946 and I don't remember of any American there. I was
not allways at Montrame for exactly one week. I went there for the court
jugment of Burger in last Novembre and spend only 24 hours. I think it is
open to outsiders on some holiday periods. Orkos folks work and live there.

F :> The ones I know here in Europe are in good healt

K : How many do you know? How many instincto purists would you guess there
are
> in Switzerland? France? In Europe?
F : Good question. No idea ! Say between 100 and 2000 for the whole
Europe... I know a handfull around here. It's also difficult to know who is
a purist and what exactly means "purist". It seems allmost everyone has a
different concept of purism and "instincto".

K : The Hawaiian instinctos with problems were in OK health before
> instincto--they had some severe episodes after being instincto for years.
> There's an instincto-from-birth who had no enamel on many of his (very
> darkened) first teeth, but not in Hawaii. No one likes to talk about that.

F : Here we brush our teeth and do not run after a mongoose escaping from a
garbage can...
When my former wife got malaria in Penang, I rushed to the pharmacy.

F > Here in Switzerland are the
> > most long-term instinctos, among them the ones who have started and
> > developped the whole idea along with Burger: All of them are very well.
K : Glad to hear it. Are they all instincto purists? My limited
understanding is
> that many of the early Burger cronies have disagreements with particular
> aspects of instincto. Enlighten me?
F : You're right, but most disagree with the concepts of the
"metasexuality".
This shows that we are not a sect of indocrinated fanatics. There's no
believes in the concepts due to Burger, they are just theoretical models. We
aren't a monolithic group, some eat 100% raw, some 100%organic, some 90%
Orkos and some try it for a short while. There are some who can eat
instincto at 90% for decades, but most of the pioneers still do it at 100%.
But everyone has some particular views and understanding. Some don't even
understand what they are doing... Sorry about my "common people" words
anyway!

K : Burger's questionable mental health is pretty problematic if instincto
> theory is at all accurate. I know all the excuses you will bring up, but
how
> is it that he can remain so unbalanced as the longest living instincto?

F : As far as I am concerned his mental health is OK and I do not know about
his intimate behaviour, except by hearsay. Since I don't know, I won't
spread gossips.
And if there were any problems with him, it'd be possible. As I told you,
expectations of healing congenital illnesses with instinctive nutrition are
sometimes groundless. There is probably some damages that cannot be
repaired - and I'm not speaking only of an amputated leg or arm.

K : He's in jail now as has been for a while if I understand it correctly.
How
> has he responded to news of longterm instinctos' problems with trich and
> staph? Or perhaps no one much talks about these pesky non-examples?

F : He warned us against trichinosis and malaria. He also said to brush our
teeth and go sometimes to the dentist for a check. I've never heard of any
problems with staphs and we don't care about them.
>
K : Cancer. Trichonosis. Staph infections. Something called "ratlung"
disease
> here in Hawaii. Taxiplasmosis (sp?).

F : Hawaians would probably have less problems if they stop to eat wild
animals feeding on garbage and cooked food leftovers. But I'm sorry, my
knowledge of the conditions there is nil and my medical one is very limited.

K :Is malaria dangerous because of the same problems? ;)
F : I don't know. Burger studied the problem and he would be able to answer
you. Or maybe someone else on this list knows? He explained us, but I can't
remember his explanation.
K : And why would trich be
> dangerous to an instinctive eater? Is it dangerous to wild animals?
F : I  suppose it is and that they get it after foraging human garbage.
There's on the French instincto list a guy called Alain Nelva, apparently
living just the opposite side to my side of  Geneva Lake. He gave use very
accurate and up to date infos about parasites, which I'll e-mail you. Maybe
he is also here or Jean-Louis Tu knows him?

K : Probably many many people have trich in them. The puzzler is why a
longterm
> instincto in his early 30's would approach death from it and normal eaters
> carry it to their deathbed in their 70's.
F : My view is that most parasites infections are due to pollution rejected
by humans in the nature and eaten by animals. But I may be wrong. Your
question contains its answer: parasites are killed by cooking. I suppose
Zhepyr (Ano) doesn't run after mongooses anymore. But they d'be all right in
a unpolluted environnement, for sure.

K : Then you are saying that large scale cooking is only 10,000 years old,
no?
F : Yes, doesn'it sound logical, since before there was no pottery? Some
food could be grilled but it remains a mystery whether it was a current
practice or not. It could have been in some locations and not in some
others.

 F : Everyone knows that some pesticides and other stuff such as
> > asbestos fibres, air pollution or exposure to high levels of
radioactivity
> > may trigger a cancer 20, 30 or more years latter. Maybe wheat and dairy
> > products too, whatever your diet is at the time.
K : This is the kind of excuse making that makes me cringe! Unfalsifiable,
and
> you just ignore the non-examples.
F : You ignore the examples of ever bigger hospital and  ever increasing
number of very sick and suffering cooked food eaters of every age.

>  F : If some toxins can be eliminated, it doesn't mean all will be and
that damage done can necessarilly be totally repaired.
K : What a surprise then that all the Swiss instinctos are the picture of
> health, eh? ;)
F : Some health problems self-heal and some remain. But many very impressive
improvements occurs.

 F : Yes. I saw Jean-Marie Burger and Nathalie Burger two months ago. They
> > are bright, very healty and well built.

K : Glad to hear it. Though I'm not sure who Jean-Marie is...
F : He is the youngest Burger son, about 25 now. A very nice guy.

K : But if he is the result of decades of super instincto nutrition how can
he
> still be as loony as ever? (I know, I know...) How revolutionary his
> theories are remains to be seen, and since meta is his theory as well, I
> guess elaborate justifications for his own unmet needs may creep into his
> theories, no? ;) Perhaps they are not as separate as you think. Attaining
> purity by fulfilling one's sensory pleasure without intellect sounds an
> awful lot like what Burger (and most of us) did not get as infants and
> later. And pretty attractive to the eat-your-fill types as well.

F : I'll enlight you about that latter on still... But maybe I got it all
wrong and you got it all right.

K : Thanks for slumming this list. I suspect the French instincto list is
more
> interesting. What sort of stuff gets talked about there?

F :Yeah, we had great fun just last week, Jean-Claude may be willing to tell
you about that since he launched the whole saga...
And thanks also, pitty we can't talk all night on a Maui beach under the
moonlight after a good day of windsurfing. I was worried you would come out
of my PC screen to eat me, but my fear has fallen now.

Kind regards,
Francois
>