Ken,

> the only way to ascertain that [other species suffer] would be by
> cross-species mind reading...

Have you never stepped accidently on a dog's foot, or slammed a door on a
cat's tale? If you are willing to argue that the resulting wailing and
moaning is not empirical evidence of suffering in animals then you place
yourself in the absurd positions of either the philosophical solipsist, or
of the radical behaviorist who denies the reality of subjective experience
in all animals including humans.

If you want to attack PETA and/or ethical vegetarianism then I would suggest
you find a credible argument.

-gts

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stuart" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [P-F] Ethics


> On Mon, 8 May 2000 12:49:38 -0400, Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 8 May 2000, Ken Stuart wrote:
> >
> >> But it is certainly arbitrary in its manifestation.
> >>
> >> For example, how many bugs suffered in the construction of the PETA
headquarters
> >> building?
> >
> >Do bugs have enough of a nervous system to be capable of
> >suffering?  A case can be made that the systems responsible for
> >pain reside mainly in the limbic system, which bugs lack
> >altogether.  So what reason is there to believe in the suffering
> >of bugs?
>
> Pain and suffering are experiences of the mind, not the body.
>
> When you are dreaming, and a large rock smashes your hand, what
physiological
> processes caused that pain and suffering?
>
> Actually suffering is not the same as pain, as is evidenced by the
existence of
> BDSM.
>
> Suffering is simply the experience of something happening that is not
desired
> (which, by the way, is more easily dealt with by eliminating the desire
than by
> eliminating the circumstances).
>
> So, to posit that other species suffer, we also have to ascertain that
they
> have:
>
> - Minds
> - Self-consciousness
> - Personal experiences
> - Desires
>
> To my knowledge, the only way to ascertain that would be by cross-species
mind
> reading...
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Ken
> [log in to unmask]
>