In a message dated 04/26/2000 10:18:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:

<< But, I have a question; did affirmative action really work?  Or is it
mostly
 all for show?  And others are welcome to post their views.

 M.
  >>

I don't think affirmative action was ever given a chance to shine in the big
workplace picture.  Actually, I should have prefaced that comment with the
disclaimer that I only saw things in one region of the US (for the most
part).  As soon as people turned it into a quota system, it wasn't really
affirmative action anymore.  Job qualifications didn't seem to count as much
as getting the minorities in the workplace for show.  The bastardized version
of affirmative action seems to have created two serious problems:

1.  More resentment on the part of white people, particularly white males,
due to
2.  Workers with inferior job skills and,
3.  The knowledge that white people who are qualified are not likely to be
hired, if members of minorities apply at the same time for the same job, even
if they are less qualified than the white person.

A secondary problem is resentment toward minorities who truly are skilled in
their field.

I do think that affirmative action is a positive move if the concept is
understood by the leadership of an organization.

My comments are about the workplace in general, but we can ill-afford to have
unqualified workers in emergency service positions (i.e., law enforcement,
fire suppression, EMS).

Specific comments about women in the fire service:
Women are not able to compete with men in terms of upper body strength.  We
can compete in leg strength, however.  Upper body strength is a must in fire
suppression.  A woman must be strong, and must also be able to compensate for
any physiological differences that cannot be anything more than minor.  For
instance, I am 5' 7" and relatively strong (well, I was anyway).  Whatever I
may have lacked in upper body strength, I was well able to compensate by
using the leverage of a larger physical frame.

There cannot be a need for too much compensation however, there is a limit to
what is acceptable. It's not just for the safety of fellow firefighters and
civilians, it's also for the safety of that female firefighter.  If she is
depending too much on leverage to do the job, she is placing undue stress on
her joints, and will be headed for trouble in later years.

I would like to think that I was strong enough to do the job myself, and I
truly believe that I was.  There was enough evidence to indicate that and I'm
comfortable to say so.  I did compensate with leverage from time to time
though.  Since the disability, I've developed joint troubles in my knees,
back, and shoulders.  I can say that's because of the disability, and perhaps
it is.  I am a lot weaker now than I used to be, and using crutches and a
manual chair have already taken a toll.  But, if I had not been a
firefighter, would I be having those joint problems now?  I don't know.  I
really don't know.

I don't sit around and wring my hands over it though. I had a burning desire
to be in the fire service, and I do believe I performed well.  I wouldn't
trade that experience for good joints now, to be honest.

Sometimes people get uncomfortable if you talk about differences in men and
women.  It's like talking about differences in disabled and nondisabled
people though.  Women do have upper body strength issues, and people with
disabilities have, or may have, some physical limitations.  That's just the
nature of our physiology.  Nature is not unfair, it's indifferent.

A guy might proudly say "I don't have a disability," and I might reply "You
wanna impress me Hoss?  Get up outta that wheelchair."

I have a disability myself.